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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think MN has it all wrong re proposals?

691 replies

alfayruz · 13/02/2022 20:12

Inspired by a thread the other day, but also a general observation on here, I was thinking ... whenever anyone posts on MN about waiting for a proposal from their DP, you can guarantee hundreds of posts along the lines of ‘just propose to him....’ AIBU to think this is ridiculous because -

  1. Nobody in actual real life does this

  2. Having to propose to a man would be a massive turn off anyway so what is the point?

  3. Even if you could still muster some kind of sexual attraction towards him, the bar is set at rock bottom before you even start - so why would you expect any initiative or effort from him on any other occasions or general life going forward?

AIBU?

OP posts:
JassyRadlett · 15/02/2022 21:57

@alfayruz

Jasey - I just see all religions as essentially driven by male insecurity and the need to control female sexuality. The rest is fluff.
I didn’t ask about religion (I suggested it as one creator of social constructs), I was asking for the theoretical basis of your proposition that what we term social constructs are fundamentally driven by individual biological differences.

Do you think they are confined to the differences between the sexes? There is no real biological basis for race; where do you think the social construct of race comes from (and therefore racism?)

Why are these things biological rather than environmental or experiential?

alfayruz · 15/02/2022 21:58

I’m saying that it’s not enough to just say inequality is because of ‘social constructs.’ We, as humans are the social constructs. Nothing exists that we didn’t engender from within ourselves.

OP posts:
JassyRadlett · 15/02/2022 21:58

@AlexaShutUp

Wow! This thread has gone downhill since I last looked! Shock
It has become very weird very quickly. I sort of miss ‘men who accept women’s proposals are unshaggable.’ Simpler times.
JassyRadlett · 15/02/2022 22:04

I’m saying that it’s not enough to just say inequality is because of ‘social constructs.’ We, as humans are the social constructs. Nothing exists that we didn’t engender from within ourselves.

You think all the things that exist outwith ourselves play no part at all? Really?

Anyway no one is saying that inequality is a social constructs. Gender inequality is a function of both biological difference (women bear children, and are thus inherently more vulnerable at certain times and that gets taken advantage of) and socially constructed factors (eg menstruation being seen as unclean, biological factors for women being extrapolated to non-biological spheres that then becomes social norms and characterised by some as ‘because they’re biologically women’ rather than ‘because it’s what we say women are.’

But you have veered way off your initial proposition, which was that social constructs around gender roles (down to marriage and proposals, apparently) are the result of differences in male and female biology. Which just doesn’t stack up.

SpinsForGin · 15/02/2022 22:06

I’m saying that it’s not enough to just say inequality is because of ‘social constructs.’ We, as humans are the social constructs. Nothing exists that we didn’t engender from within ourselves.
So you do believe that women are inferior and this is biological?

Do you have any evidence to support this? I research women's career development for a living which involves looking at inequality and I'm yet to find any reputable evidence for these inequalities being innate or biological.
There's lots of evidence for the social construct theory though 🤷🏼‍♀️

SpinsForGin · 15/02/2022 22:08

Although, women are discriminated because of their sex but this is due to how people view these differences not due the biological differences themselves.

cuno · 15/02/2022 22:09

OP when are you going to address how race plays out in your idea of social-but-inherently-biological construct? Me and others have brought it up and you have skirted around the issue. Hm, interesting.

youvegottenminuteslynn · 15/02/2022 22:10

@JassyRadlett

I sort of miss ‘men who accept women’s proposals are unshaggable.’ Simpler times.

I think my favourite era was that if men don't put the bins out and do other Jobs For Men then straight women should either magically become lesbians or get gender neutral robots because otherwise 'what is the point' of a man.

It's been a wild ride.

alfayruz · 15/02/2022 22:12

Jasey - I’m no anthropologist, but it seems obvious to me that as the child-bearing sex, women since the beginning of time have had to negotiate life differently to men. A lot of ‘social constructs’ such as family structures (whether it’s the nuclear family or plural wives) would have been a double-edged sword of enduring survival and protecting women and their children, but also ensuring paternity. Over time, this morphs into control and all the manifestations of the patriarchy as it plays out in virtually all societies across the globe. Religion is devised (by men) as a way of sublimating and institutionalising it all and the rest is obvious.

OP posts:
alfayruz · 15/02/2022 22:17

Fgs, of course I don’t think women are inferior. This hardly needs saying.

I am saying, although we no longer live in caves or whatever, women are still the childbearing sex and this biological difference means that, to some extent, women have to negotiate life slightly differently. This is obvious! Nothing to do with inferiority. Blimey.

OP posts:
cuno · 15/02/2022 22:21

I don't see how that has fuck all to do with proposals by men being de rigueur and why you think this is the best and only way. Women are perfectly able in this society right now to negotiate life by proposing or by sitting down at a table and making a joint decision without any proposal!

alfayruz · 15/02/2022 22:23

What does race have to do with male and female biology?

OP posts:
SpinsForGin · 15/02/2022 22:27

@alfayruz

Fgs, of course I don’t think women are inferior. This hardly needs saying.

I am saying, although we no longer live in caves or whatever, women are still the childbearing sex and this biological difference means that, to some extent, women have to negotiate life slightly differently. This is obvious! Nothing to do with inferiority. Blimey.

But my argument is that the reason women have to negotiate the world differently isn't because of the biological differences but is due to how society views women because of these differences. This in turn leads to inequalities.

In the course of my research I've spoken to numerous women who don't have children and have no intention of having children yet they are still discriminated against in the workplace.
That's not due to biology but due to how society views women.

alfayruz · 15/02/2022 22:29

Yes ‘sit them at the table’ in MN style, by all means. Do what you like.

The only reason I started this thread is because if MN is to be believed, you would genuinely 90% of marriages start with a woman “sitting him at the table.” In real life, I would be surprised if this is anywhere near as common as people purport it to be on here. That’s all. It was based on the other thread a few days ago. Every other poster was saying to her, “ Sit him at the table.’ Grin

OP posts:
cuno · 15/02/2022 22:34

@alfayruz

What does race have to do with male and female biology?
You were claiming social constructs came about because of biology. Don't try to worm your way out of potentially coming across as racist by feigning confusion over this.
cuno · 15/02/2022 22:35

@alfayruz

Yes ‘sit them at the table’ in MN style, by all means. Do what you like.

The only reason I started this thread is because if MN is to be believed, you would genuinely 90% of marriages start with a woman “sitting him at the table.” In real life, I would be surprised if this is anywhere near as common as people purport it to be on here. That’s all. It was based on the other thread a few days ago. Every other poster was saying to her, “ Sit him at the table.’ Grin

Oh don't pretend you weren't being judgemental and sneery about it. Didn't you say the men are feeble and pathetic if they don't propose?
JassyRadlett · 15/02/2022 22:36

@alfayruz

Jasey - I’m no anthropologist, but it seems obvious to me that as the child-bearing sex, women since the beginning of time have had to negotiate life differently to men. A lot of ‘social constructs’ such as family structures (whether it’s the nuclear family or plural wives) would have been a double-edged sword of enduring survival and protecting women and their children, but also ensuring paternity. Over time, this morphs into control and all the manifestations of the patriarchy as it plays out in virtually all societies across the globe. Religion is devised (by men) as a way of sublimating and institutionalising it all and the rest is obvious.
Yep, there is (as I’ve said) a degree of ‘social reaction to biological imperatives’ in gender roles. But there are other factors at play that undermine the idea that all of these and in particular how we ‘feel’ about them are the direct result of biology.

For example, you cited ‘ensuring paternity’ as a biological imperative, but is it? Is there evidence that it’s innate biology, rather than, say, a response to the environmental factor that there isn’t much food, there’s a fucking sabre tooth cat outside, need to decide who to prioritise, this group looks like a sensible grouping. (And that group will still differ across cultures based on social norms.) I’m not sure there’s any evidence that men have a different biological response to children who aren’t biologically theirs (ie there isn’t a pheromone issue, etc.) It’s the idea of their child that’s the driver, and I think there is a decent argument that it’s more about desire and imperative for power and authority.

There’s much we don’t know. But a couple of good rules of thumb:

  1. When it comes to gender roles, the rapid unwinding of previously supposedly ‘innate’ female roles as soon as women had a way to avoid pregnancy is a signal that many of the roles and norms thrust upon women were not in fact driven by their own biology, and their biological difference from men, but from society’s response to their biological difference from men.
Another way to look at it is by culture - take the contention put forward by some that girls are more innately drawn to humanities, and boys to STEM. If you look at studies and surveys of British children, you’d certainly think that was supported. But those rates vary vastly across countries, and absent a massive biological difference in, for example, Russian girls and British girls, our concepts of what boys and girls are ‘good at’ or ‘are drawn to’ are largely constructed by us and imposed on our children at a young age. (Depressingly consistent is the fact that as more women enter a field, pay rates decline.)
  1. There are plenty of social constructs that aren’t gender based and where it is incredibly difficult to apply a biologically-driven lens to some of the constructs we’ve invented. Numerous people have mentioned race; there are others. The idea of adulthood, for example, is an example of a social construct that has shifted considerably (for both men and women) over time. Again, there is a biological component (sexual maturity) involved but it’s not the sole or even the determining factor in different concepts of adulthood across societies and over time.
Luredbyapomegranate · 15/02/2022 22:36

Blimey, OP this has been a wild drip feed. You have A LOT of trad views, I feel like you were trying to soften us up with talk of beaches and solitaires, before you really socked us with the trad wife world. There’s a market for this shit mind you. Start a blog. Maybe combine it with a bit of religious zealotry and a side of tray bakes. 🙃

JassyRadlett · 15/02/2022 22:37

Oh don't pretend you weren't being judgemental and sneery about it. Didn't you say the men are feeble and pathetic if they don't propose?

Don’t forget unshaggable.

IckyPop · 15/02/2022 22:38

@Skeam you got my number Grin

alfayruz · 15/02/2022 22:59

‘But my argument is that the reason women have to negotiate the world differently isn't because of the biological differences but is due to how society views women because of these differences.’

But again, we are society. So it’s the same thing.

But yes, I agree that “society” (ie us, her and now) is deeply conflicted in the way we view mothers. Look at the threads on here if you need evidence of that! If you SAH you are mocked by other women on here as ‘living off a man’ / or what did that poster call me just now - ‘trad wife.’ (who needs misogynistic men)? Grin If you work, you may well be made to feel guilty about it. So you can’t win. Different women negotiate the fact if childbirth and childcare differently. But biological facts like pregnancy, breastfeeding and the whole shebang do mean that women have all these debates in a way men don’t. And that’s before you get into hormones, post/birth complications, PND.

OP posts:
AlexaShutUp · 15/02/2022 23:06

@alfayruz

Jasey - I’m no anthropologist, but it seems obvious to me that as the child-bearing sex, women since the beginning of time have had to negotiate life differently to men. A lot of ‘social constructs’ such as family structures (whether it’s the nuclear family or plural wives) would have been a double-edged sword of enduring survival and protecting women and their children, but also ensuring paternity. Over time, this morphs into control and all the manifestations of the patriarchy as it plays out in virtually all societies across the globe. Religion is devised (by men) as a way of sublimating and institutionalising it all and the rest is obvious.
You are indeed no anthropologist. You're suggesting that the patriarchy is essentially a natural consequence of our biology, but the evidence suggests that the original hunter gatherer societies were actually much more egalitarian than the agrarian societies that developed subsequently.
oblada · 15/02/2022 23:08

DH and I jointly agreed to get married. To be perfectly honest I find the idea that a woman should wait for a proposal from a man to be quite bizarre nowadays. I hope to see more couples do this. It shows equality and generally makes sense.

alfayruz · 15/02/2022 23:12

Where did patriarchy come from if not humans?

Did it descend on us randomly from above?

(that’s not me saying ‘go patriarchy’ by the way - just before I’m accused of being a secret Taliban member).

OP posts:
SpinsForGin · 15/02/2022 23:12

But again, we are society. So it’s the same thing.
No it isn't

But yes, I agree that “society” (ie us, her and now) is deeply conflicted in the way we view mothers. Look at the threads on here if you need evidence of that! If you SAH you are mocked by other women on here as ‘living off a man’ / or what did that poster call me just now - ‘trad wife.’ (who needs misogynistic men)? If you work, you may well be made to feel guilty about it.
But this isn't due to biology. It's due to how people view the role of women in society. That person mocking SAHMs isn't acting in biological instinct. They're doing that because they view motherhood in a particular way.

So you can’t win. Different women negotiate the fact if childbirth and childcare differently.
And again ( recovery from birth aside) this is due to how we view the role of women in society. Decisions around childcare are not biologically driven. Otherwise we'd all make the same choices.

But biological facts like pregnancy, breastfeeding and the whole shebang do mean that women have all these debates in a way men don’t. And that’s before you get into hormones, post/birth complications, PND.

Nobody will argue with that. Which is why understanding the difference between sex snd gender is important