To think MN has it all wrong re proposals?

[alfayruz]

Inspired by a thread the other day, but also a general observation on here, I was thinking ... whenever anyone posts on MN about waiting for a proposal from their DP, you can guarantee hundreds of posts along the lines of ‘just propose to him....’ AIBU to think this is ridiculous because -

1. Nobody in actual real life does this

2. Having to propose to a man would be a massive turn off anyway so what is the point?

3. Even if you could still muster some kind of sexual attraction towards him, the bar is set at rock bottom before you even start - so why would you expect any initiative or effort from him on any other occasions or general life going forward?

AIBU?

I feel like the romantic surprise proposal fantasy has really screwed with women. You spend so much time wanting to be “chosen” that you forget to figure out if you would choose them! I married young because I got a romantic proposal and was swept up in the idea of it, not really thinking that “no” was an answer. I think it’s much more sensible for a couple to discuss whether they should get married and agree together.

The male can then of course follow up with a romantic “surprise” proposal where he asks you officially and you get a ring - but I don’t think we should be telling girls that being sprung with a proposal out of the blue with no prior discussion with you first, is the ideal scenario.

Incels spout the same nonsense too actually.

DH and I did discuss getting married . There was no 'proposal' . Nor was there one in my first marriage. I didn't have an engagement ring either time ( my strong preference) and although I did have a ( cheap) wedding ring, I lost it within the first couple of years in both marriages . Neither DH nor I still have our wedding rings . We have still been married for 18 years with joint finances, house,child bank accounts etc.

What do you think about institutional racism then OP? Must have some biological reasoning according to you

@Allsorts1

I feel like the romantic surprise proposal fantasy has really screwed with women. You spend so much time wanting to be “chosen” that you forget to figure out if you would choose them! I married young because I got a romantic proposal and was swept up in the idea of it, not really thinking that “no” was an answer. I think it’s much more sensible for a couple to discuss whether they should get married and agree together.

The male can then of course follow up with a romantic “surprise” proposal where he asks you officially and you get a ring - but I don’t think we should be telling girls that being sprung with a proposal out of the blue with no prior discussion with you first, is the ideal scenario.

This. In neon lights.

For this reason alone I couldn't stand a proposal. Its so passive. I can't bear the idea of handing so much power to someone.

All these people saying they would find it a turn off having to propose to a man: anyone who is sufficiently confident that someone wants to marry them that they will drop several thousand on a ring and then present it to you and expect you to gush and swoon gratitude. The entitlement and the control is so offputting. I'd be far more turned off by that than I would be asking someone to be involved in something I also want to do.

I agree.

A proposal wasn't important to me, just like Valentine's Day is not important to me, neither is celebrating my birthday. But those things are important to others, so getting my opinion in makes no difference to how a person might be feeling.

PS I proposed to my husband

@alfayruz

Yes society determines social constructs.

And what is society composed of?

Humans.

And what drives humans?

Biology.

Have you ever wondered how all the many human societies across the world have managed to develop differently, with different social norms, despite us all being biologically similar?

Absolutely social constructs come from religion and the patriarchy. But essentially, religion and the patriarchy are various manifestations of human nature. For better or for worse (mostly for worse).

@alfayruz

Absolutely social constructs come from religion and the patriarchy. But essentially, religion and the patriarchy are various manifestations of human nature. For better or for worse (mostly for worse).

And who are you to decide that men proposing to women, as may be cultural in a western society but not others, is for the better?

@alfayruz

Yes society determines social constructs.

And what is society composed of?

Humans.

And what drives humans?

Biology.

If people seriously believed this we wouldn’t bother trying to raise our kids well and impart values and morals and even manners. Biology would sort it.

But we know that a pure biological approach is pretty much bollocks. Human brains are incredibly plastic and change and adapt based on environment and experiences as well as our personal biology. That includes the ‘rules’ our communities have developed over time to try and create systems and order - and those rules affect our own thinking and feelings, whether we have figured it out or not.

I’m not dismissing biology as a factor, but if it was the sole driver these constructs would be universal and would change little over time. We know that’s not the case.

Case in point: a century ago maybe most women wouldn’t have wanted to shag a man they had proposed to. These days that is starting to be an outlying opinion.

I’m always amazed at how similar most societies are Gynaesaur, when you strip it all back. Most societies are patriarchal essentially. It just manifests in different ways. Religious repression, porn culture - all comes from the same place.

OP you're basically saying there's some truth in women being inferior to men, that's why I'm taking from this.

*what

I’m with you. Men should do the proposing

@alfayruz

Yes society determines social constructs.

And what is society composed of?

Humans.

And what drives humans?

Biology.

Really?

So how do you explain structural inequalities? Are women facing inequality because of biology? What about racial inequalities? Is that biology too?

@cuno

OP you're basically saying there's some truth in women being inferior to men, that's why I'm taking from this.

It would seem that way. Depressing to say the least.

@Notwithittoday

I’m with you. Men should do the proposing

Why?

Wow! This thread has gone downhill since I last looked!

@alfayruz

I’m always amazed at how similar most societies are Gynaesaur, when you strip it all back. Most societies are patriarchal essentially. It just manifests in different ways. Religious repression, porn culture - all comes from the same place.

Well yes because men are (physically) stronger than women, don’t bear children so are not restricted in their ability to accrue money and other assets and have had millennia to shape society to suit their needs.

That doesn’t mean the structures they have put in place are more “natural” or biologically innate. They are the spoils of war.

@alfayruz

Absolutely social constructs come from religion and the patriarchy. But essentially, religion and the patriarchy are various manifestations of human nature. For better or for worse (mostly for worse).

No, I disagree with this. But then ‘human nature’ is generally philosophical rather than a scientific concept - and given how ‘human nature’ has changed so much over time (and even in short timeframes) as well as varying from culture to culture, it’s incredibly difficult to argue that it is solely or even primarily driven by biology or ‘nature’ alone rather than a wide variety of other factors.

There are some near-universal ‘values’ (often claimed by religions as uniquely theirs, but oddly consistent across faiths) that maybe sprang up as the result of humans shifting to more communal living - but again that’s more circumstances and environment and the behaviours needed to thrive in those circumstances than innate biology.

What schools of thought are you following for the idea that social constructs are biologically driven?

cuno
“OP you're basically saying there's some truth in women being inferior to men, that's why I'm taking from this.“

Where do you get inferior from?

@alfayruz

cuno “OP you're basically saying there's some truth in women being inferior to men, that's why I'm taking from this.“

Where do you get inferior from?

Because women are yet to achieve equality in society. Most of us (and the research) would argue that this is due to the patriarchy, societal expectations linked to gender, stereotypes etc all of which are social constructs. You appear to be arguing that it's due to biology.

Well put, @thepeopleversuswork.

It’s amazing how once medical science (and frankly advances in plastic and rubber manufacturing) enabled women to have regular sex without being pregnant for years on end, their apparently biologically-driven values and behaviours changed in large numbers in really a staggeringly short time frame.

Jasey - I just see all religions as essentially driven by male insecurity and the need to control female sexuality. The rest is fluff.

@alfayruz

cuno “OP you're basically saying there's some truth in women being inferior to men, that's why I'm taking from this.“

Where do you get inferior from?

Societies across the world treat women as second class citizens at best, and at worst... mere objects for men to do with as they want for their own personal gain and pleasure. Have you been living under a rock?