To think MN has it all wrong re proposals?

[alfayruz]

Inspired by a thread the other day, but also a general observation on here, I was thinking ... whenever anyone posts on MN about waiting for a proposal from their DP, you can guarantee hundreds of posts along the lines of ‘just propose to him....’ AIBU to think this is ridiculous because -

1. Nobody in actual real life does this

2. Having to propose to a man would be a massive turn off anyway so what is the point?

3. Even if you could still muster some kind of sexual attraction towards him, the bar is set at rock bottom before you even start - so why would you expect any initiative or effort from him on any other occasions or general life going forward?

AIBU?

I have not said anyone is ‘pathetic’ or ‘desperate.’ I don’t think I’ve used the word ‘cringe’ either. If someone has said that, it wasn’t me.

You can relate to your husband in a totally ‘gender free’ way if that’s how you feel and that’s absolutely fine. But plenty of women and men feel differently and that’s also fine.

That's essentially what everyone has been saying to you the whole time OP, that couples should do what works for them (rather than defaulting to gender stereotypes based on penis vs vagina with no consideration of alternatives that may work better or be fairer) and that in doing so they may live up to traditional stereotypes or they may choose to not to.

You're agreeing with people in essence, you just seem to be determined to keep arguing!

@alfayruz

To the poster above, I didn’t say the tradition of men proposing was biological . Obviously that’s cultural. When I was talking about biological differences, it was with respect to childbirth, breastfeeding, attachment and the emotional / physical / psychological impacts of having children.

I believe there are fundamental differences here for men and women which obvious ramifications in the personal and public spheres. To pretend otherwise is to do women a disservice. Just because some women seem threatened by the idea if any biological differences between men and women whatsoever, doesn’t give them the right to tell me or other women how we should feel. You can relate to your husband in a totally ‘gender free’ way if that’s how you feel and that’s absolutely fine. But plenty of women and men feel differently and that’s also fine.

I think you are misunderstanding what people are saying. Yes, there are biological differences between men and women but those biological differences do not influence how we behave in relation to our gender. Gender is a social construct. To ignore that is to do a huge disservice to women.

Choosing to be a SAHM is not a biological decision.
Choosing how you split childcare or housework is not a biological decision.
Your husband taking on the responsibility of the family finances is not driven by biology.
These are driven by societal expectations, gender stereotypes and personal preferences.

If you choose to structure your family along more traditional lines then that is your choice. But it's not a decision that is driven by biology.

Me and my boyfriend always used to joke about getting married, laughing about how our married life would be, joking about the £10’000 diamond ring I’d like etc and we could always laugh about it because we were both on the same page and we knew we’d end up married.

When he actually did propose though it came as a complete surprise because we’d never actually talked seriously about marriage so the proposal out of the blue was so romantic.

I think deep down every woman wants a romantic proposal from a man who chose to do it off his own back and not because he’s somehow cornered into doing it.

I can see though why it is advised for women to bring it up in a business like manner when she feels that she and her partner are on completely different pages and not wanting the same things.

However, I can totally see why some women wouldn’t want to do this or propose themselves because it goes against what their dream proposal would look like.

I think deep down every woman wants a romantic proposal from a man who chose to do it off his own back and not because he’s somehow cornered into doing it.

Now that is total and utter nonsense!

I think deep down every woman wants a romantic proposal from a man who chose to do it off his own back and not because he’s somehow cornered into doing it.

Nope. I did not want DH to do that.

Why is there an assumption that it's women driving the conversations about marriage? Like men are being dragged into it without agency.

What we're talking about here are adult conversations between two people. Men can still initiate a conversation about marriage that doesn't involve the big, surprise proposal.

What we're talking about here are adult conversations between two people. Men can still initiate a conversation about marriage that doesn't involve the big, surprise proposal.

Which is something a lot of women would be disappointed.

My experience of newly engaged women, of which I’ve met many, is that they enjoy gushing over ‘how’ he proposed….and that’s not surprising as generally “so how did he propose?” is usually one of the first question women are asked

I love the gushing and the happiness and excitement newly engaged women have about their proposals. I think it’s lovely.

@DontWantTheRivalry

What we're talking about here are adult conversations between two people. Men can still initiate a conversation about marriage that doesn't involve the big, surprise proposal.

Which is something a lot of women would be disappointed.

My experience of newly engaged women, of which I’ve met many, is that they enjoy gushing over ‘how’ he proposed….and that’s not surprising as generally “so how did he propose?” is usually one of the first question women are asked

I love the gushing and the happiness and excitement newly engaged women have about their proposals. I think it’s lovely.

Nobody is saying it isn't lovely. We're just saying not everyone wants that. Surely that's not difficult to understand?

I love telling the story of how me and DH got married. Just because it didn't involve a surprise proposal doesn't mean it's any less valid (or romantic) than those that did start that way.

I would argue that biology does influence gender in some ways (for some people more then others, it’s true). But you can’t just write off the impact of different hormones or physicality and how these differences can manifest in terms of human behaviour or sexuality. ‘Social constructs’ are generally just a reflection of this or an attempt to control / sublimate human drives. You can see gender as repressive because in ms t ways it is, but it persists because it’s also a form of human expression.

@alfayruz

I would argue that biology does influence gender in some ways (for some people more then others, it’s true). But you can’t just write off the impact of different hormones or physicality and how these differences can manifest in terms of human behaviour or sexuality. ‘Social constructs’ are generally just a reflection of this or an attempt to control / sublimate human drives. You can see gender as repressive because in ms t ways it is, but it persists because it’s also a form of human expression.

OP, you seem very, very confused about the meanings of many of the main nouns in this post.

I would argue that biology does influence gender in some ways (for some people more then others, it’s true). But you can’t just write off the impact of different hormones or physicality and how these differences can manifest in terms of human behaviour or sexuality.
These are sex based differences. Nobody is 'writing them off' because they are important BUT they are completely separate to the social construct of gender.

‘Social constructs’ are generally just a reflection of this or an attempt to control / sublimate human drives. You can see gender as repressive because in ms t ways it is, but it persists because it’s also a form of human expression.

Gender isn't about biology.
You need to understand the difference between sex and gender.

So why does gender exist then?

I wonder if there is a socioeconomic thing going on here, rather than a biological one?

There seems to be a deeply ingrained assumption on this thread that women will want marriage while most men will need to be cajoled into it...except the "good" ones who somehow manage to do it without being told. I find this really curious.

Obviously, there is still a gender pay gap in our society and many women are still financially dependent on men. So there is a financial benefit in marriage for those women while the men pay a financial penalty.

And if that's the set up, I guess maybe it is reasonable for the man to propose because he is the one who stands to lose the most and therefore has to really want to get married in order to make it worthwhile? Whereas it's seen as a no brainer that the woman will want to get married as it's obviously in her economic interest.

Perhaps those of us who are arguing for a less gendered approach to relationships are the ones who are economically in a stronger position? So we stand to gain much less from marriage financially, if at all? (In my case, not at all - quite the opposite, actually).

Consequently, we don't feel the need for any grand gestures from the man to "prove" that they really want to marry us because the cost of marriage to them is no greater than it is to us.

Perhaps the very fact that financially independent women don't need to get married changes the way they approach the subject?

Just a theory.

Nobody is saying it isn't lovely. We're just saying not everyone wants that. Surely that's not difficult to understand? I love telling the story of how me and DH got married. Just because it didn't involve a surprise proposal doesn't mean it's any less valid (or romantic) than those that did start that way.

Of course I understand that. My partner proposed to me in our living room and I loved it. The surprise element of it was what made it so romantic, not the surroundings.

I guess I mean that most women want to marry a man who proposes to them of their own free will and not because they were cornered into it.

A sit down discussion at the about the practicalities of marriage and the financial and legal benefits just doesn’t have the same sense of wonderment about it - in my opinion anyway.

But like I said, I know everyone is different. And ok, maybe not every woman wants the exhilaration of a surprise proposal but I imagine the majority of woman would.

No it’s nothing to do with money.

For socio-economic context - I don’t know anyone whose husband didn’t propose to her. Most of my social circle met the DH at uni or shortly after when the gender-pay gap hadn’t really set in. I met DH a bit later, but he hadn’t made his money then. The women are just as educated as the men and they certainly didn’t ‘need’ marriage.m for financial reasons. They just like men with certain behaviours and manners really. That’s all it is.

I guess I mean that most women want to marry a man who proposes to them of their own free will and not because they were cornered into it.

I’d switch that up a bit. Most women want to marry a man who wants to marry them of his own free will and not because he was cornered into it.

I think that is true for most women, sadly I don’t think it happens for at least a proportion of women.

The proposal feels like an added extra. It’s clearly more important for some people than for others, and people find the wonder in the moment in different ways (mine was the fact he’d got there first, sneaky. But it was fairly low key.)

For others, the ‘wonderment’ of a single (often quite staged) moment doesn’t even come close to the deeper sense of wonder at having the sort of connection to another human that makes you want to contemplate a commitment to life together.

Some need or want frills, some don’t. Both are ok and neither is less special or less wonderful. The men who propose are no less or more than the men who are proposed to, or decide jointly with their future wives. It’s the absurdity of the OP in suggesting otherwise that’s kept this one going.

@alfayruz

So why does gender exist then?

What do you mean? As we've already said, gender is a social construct. Society places expectations on how men and women are expected to behave ..... it's nothing to do with biology. This thread is a prime example. As a society we've been told that men should propose to women and that anything less than that is 'wrong'. However, There is nothing in a mans biological make up that makes him better at proposing. Our views on this are based on gender stereotypes and societal expectations.

So do you think biology has influenced you into being so sneery and judgemental about men and women who happily choose to live their lives differently to your narrow world view? Or do you accept it's just an unfortunate part of your personality?

@DontWantTheRivalry

Nobody is saying it isn't lovely. We're just saying not everyone wants that. Surely that's not difficult to understand? I love telling the story of how me and DH got married. Just because it didn't involve a surprise proposal doesn't mean it's any less valid (or romantic) than those that did start that way.

Of course I understand that. My partner proposed to me in our living room and I loved it. The surprise element of it was what made it so romantic, not the surroundings.

I guess I mean that most women want to marry a man who proposes to them of their own free will and not because they were cornered into it.

A sit down discussion at the about the practicalities of marriage and the financial and legal benefits just doesn’t have the same sense of wonderment about it - in my opinion anyway.

But like I said, I know everyone is different. And ok, maybe not every woman wants the exhilaration of a surprise proposal but I imagine the majority of woman would.

There's a lot of projection going here. The language you are using is interesting. .... exhilaration and wonderment. These are words you clearly associate with a proposal. Not everyone sees it that way.

I still had those feelings..... in fact I still
have them 8 years down the line! I didn't need a surprise proposal to feel those things. The act of getting married provided those feelings for us.

Yes gender is a social construct.

And where do social constructs come from? What determines them?

@alfayruz

Yes gender is a social construct.

And where do social constructs come from? What determines them?

Society How's its structured, who holds the power and how those power structures are challenged and then how they eventually evolve.

If you're trying to give credence to men proposing being the done thing because social constructs are the natural order of things influenced by biology (according to you), then you are automatically giving credence to all the horrible awful things that happens to women at the hands of men because of the same social constructs. You don't get to cherrypick which ways are okay for women and men to not be on equal footing because you think those ways are lovely, and ignore all the awful shit that is sneaking through the back door along with it.

Yes society determines social constructs.

And what is society composed of?

Humans.

And what drives humans?

Biology.

Honestly sounds like the dumb shit the taliban would argue.

@alfayruz

Yes gender is a social construct.

And where do social constructs come from? What determines them?

coughpatriarchy and religioncough

In all seriousness - the fact that social constructs can change massively over relatively short periods of time (let alone that they vary from culture to culture) should give you a clue that they’re not biologically-driven.

It’s a fascinating area of reading and study to learn about how humans have created ‘rules’ for their communities and societies since we’ve existed.