To think MN has it all wrong re proposals?

[alfayruz]

Inspired by a thread the other day, but also a general observation on here, I was thinking ... whenever anyone posts on MN about waiting for a proposal from their DP, you can guarantee hundreds of posts along the lines of ‘just propose to him....’ AIBU to think this is ridiculous because -

1. Nobody in actual real life does this

2. Having to propose to a man would be a massive turn off anyway so what is the point?

3. Even if you could still muster some kind of sexual attraction towards him, the bar is set at rock bottom before you even start - so why would you expect any initiative or effort from him on any other occasions or general life going forward?

AIBU?

Yes, that’s what I’m doing. I already explained that.

That’s great for you.

But you clearly are a bit confused, as you say things like the nonsense I quoted about needing a man to behave or do everything exactly the same as you do, and non-gender ‘sameness’.

Plus also the idea that women would or should lose all sexual attraction to a man if he doesn’t propose.

I mean maybe if I’d proposed to DH rather than the other way around (we’d discussed it previously, he caught me by surprise when I wasn’t expecting it, it was lovely, I was perfectly willing to propose (or not have a proposal at all), but he got in first) I would have suddenly and instantly lost all desire for him.

I can’t imagine it though. I’m pretty secure in my attraction to him and feelings for him and I can’t imagine it being eroded by something so absolutely ephemeral and ultimately nowhere near as meaningful as what comes later.

[quote tigger1001]@Skeam that's me too. Only in my case neither of us wanted to get married. We had a grown conversation around it and our individual reasons why and we have been together for 20 years.

I do vividly remember a couple of my friends were horrified and basically told him he needed to marry me as that was the cornerstone of a solid relationship and it needed to be a grand gesture proposal to show he was serious. He still laughs at that, not least as it showed he knew me better than they did as a grand proposal would have embarrassed me deeply and I would wonder why I would want to stay with someone who didn't know me that well. Ironically they got their grand gesture proposal and the fairytale wedding and are now both divorced.

I've always strongly believed that relationships are individual- what works for one couple won't work for another. But communication is key to any relationship. If you can't have a conversation about what you want then how does that work? Neither party are mind readers. Just be open and honest.[/quote]
Exactly. If DH had pulled off some cheesy stunt like dropping to one knee at a beauty spot on Valentine's Day, or hiding a diamond solitaire in the creme brulée at a Michelin-starred hotspot while a string quartet discreetly broke into my favourite song, I'd have thought I'd been deceived in both his knowledge of me and his sense of the ridiculous. And yes, I'd have wondered if the relationship had any future if he'd genuinely thought this might be something I wanted.

I once saw something on 'romantic ways to propose' in a US magazine -- one of them suggested the guy got his girlfriend a necklace with her initials, then wait for her to say 'Wait, those aren't my initials!', whereupon Mr 1950s Romance says 'They'd be your initials if you married me!' and produces the ring.

Because nothing says romance like sexist traditions.

I did this in real life. Was no biggie. Neither of us minded, neither did effect how we saw each other.
Plus we had an interesting story when asked how he proposed.

@alfayruz

What is categorically not equal is the idea that such arrangements are necessarily dictated by a person's sex. That is what people are disagreeing with. ‘

Yes I do get the point people are making. But when all is said and done, I am a woman who wanted to SAH with my kids and I own that. It is what it is. How much of that is determined by my sex, I can’t say, but I would suspect my biology was / is very significant if I’m being honest. That said, I accept not all women will feel like that - of course. But I did so I’m not going to pretend otherwise and nor should I need to.

But since you accept that not all women share your preferences - and that's very clear from this thread alone - why would you assume that your personal choices are linked to your biology? It clearly isn't biological, otherwise all women would be programmed to want the same thing.

The fact that you assume that it's linked to biology when the evidence clearly suggests otherwise merely demonstrates that you have been socialised in such a way that you believe certain behaviours or choices to be natural for women even when they're not. Which rather suggests that you haven't freely chosen after all.

@IckyPop

I did this in real life. Was no biggie. Neither of us minded, neither did effect how we saw each other. Plus we had an interesting story when asked how he proposed.

Nonsense, @IckyPop -- clearly you were 'desperate', and the second the words 'Marry me' came out of your mouth, you started growing chest hair and a baritone. Because biology, innit.

I know how I feel, Alexa and yes, I put a lot of it down to biological factors. Socialisation is part of it for sure and we all know this, but it’s naive to think it’s all purely down to socialisation. It isn’t.

Don’t get me wrong, I think men and women have far more similarities then differences in most aspects of life. And obviously men and women vary hugely as well. But broadly speaking, the experience of having children is not the same for men and women, physically, psychologically or emotionally and it’s ridiculous to pretend otherwise.

So if you believe that it's biological, why do you think so many women feel differently?

alfayruz you are hugely underestimating the role of societal expectations, stereotypes and socialisation.

It's just faulty logic, isn't it?

I am a woman
I feel like this.
Therefore all women feel like this.

Except they don't!

I know of a couple of women who proposed to their male partners. I also know couples who haven't had an official proposal and just chose to get married (dh and I being on of those couples... he did buy me an engagement ring before our wedding, but no official proposal).
So ye

1. it does happen in real life
2. whilst it may be a turn off to you, that doesn't speak for the entire gender.
3. see 2...

@AlexaShutUp

It's just faulty logic, isn't it?

I am a woman
I feel like this.
Therefore all women feel like this.

Except they don't!

Exactly. While I'm not denying that they physical act of carrying and then giving birth is unique to women i'm not sold on the idea that parenting is gendered. While a woman might choose to stay at home with the children, as is her prerogative, but I would argue that that has far more to do with societal expectations and specific societal structures rather than biology.

*carrying a child

@alfayruz

I know how I feel, Alexa and yes, I put a lot of it down to biological factors. Socialisation is part of it for sure and we all know this, but it’s naive to think it’s all purely down to socialisation. It isn’t.

Don’t get me wrong, I think men and women have far more similarities then differences in most aspects of life. And obviously men and women vary hugely as well. But broadly speaking, the experience of having children is not the same for men and women, physically, psychologically or emotionally and it’s ridiculous to pretend otherwise.

And what biological factor says men have to propose, something that is entirely made up by our society and isn't part of every culture?

I am afraid I really don't understand the angst about men proposing. DH and I really did just decide to marry, no proposal, no engagement ring. We just decided to marry. We began to save and when we had enough money to pay for our wedding and to put down a deposit on our house, we set the date, booked the date and then informed family and friends. We also had no expectations of either family to pay for the wedding. When our children were born (for US, not for him) we both decided that one if us would stay at home with them until they went to school. In the end, I was the one who stopped work because that was the best option for us. Our home life is /was likely a 50/50 split of jobs, but based upon our own preferences or skills. I do the decorating, he does all the ironing and gardening. We share cooking. Cleaning and tidying are shared. Childcare was shared. We have been married almost 40 years and our relationship is still very much equal, we both have an equal voice in decisions and still share out tasks according to who is better at those things. DH is now retired and looks after dgc several days a week. A big proposal is not necessarily romantic. He shows his love for me in much more meaningful ways - gets up early on cold mornings to de-ice and warm my car, pays 'our' song on youtube on our anniversary and asks me to dance even tough I know he hates dancing, he remembers our anniversary without me reminding him, when we were struggling financially in the early days of our marriage, he would walk the three miles from the station on Fridays so he could buy a twix for us to share after dinner. I may not have an engagement ring, but I have a true diamond in my DH.

“I am a woman
I feel like this.
Therefore all women feel like this. “

That’s exactly what you’re saying though Alexa. Can’t you see that? You’re saying that because you don’t feel a certain way, no women can do.

@alfayruz

“I am a woman I feel like this. Therefore all women feel like this. “

That’s exactly what you’re saying though Alexa. Can’t you see that? You’re saying that because you don’t feel a certain way, no women can do.

That isn't what I'm saying at all, OP. You seem to have a problem with your reading comprehension.

Yeah, but, many of the women posting on here who are waiting for a proposal, want the man to propose because it’s a sign he really actively wants to marry them. It’s not really about who asks first so much as it’s about what that asking means.

Have seen more than one post with a ‘DP’ who clearly doesn’t really want to get married despite two kids and a joint mortgage and a partner who desperately wants to, and it’s clear she doesn’t just want to see him kneeling with a ring for its own sake, she wants getting married to be something he wants enough to do that. (rather than something he passively ambles along with so she doesn’t leave.)

@GoldenOmber

Yeah, but, many of the women posting on here who are waiting for a proposal, want the man to propose because it’s a sign he really actively wants to marry them. It’s not really about who asks first so much as it’s about what that asking means.

Have seen more than one post with a ‘DP’ who clearly doesn’t really want to get married despite two kids and a joint mortgage and a partner who desperately wants to, and it’s clear she doesn’t just want to see him kneeling with a ring for its own sake, she wants getting married to be something he wants enough to do that. (rather than something he passively ambles along with so she doesn’t leave.)

Maybe some of these men are also waiting for a sign that the women actively want to marry them as well? On that basis, they could both end up waiting indefinitely...

Maybe some of these men are also waiting for a sign that the women actively want to marry them as well?

I’m thinking of the ones who are like “well we’ve talked about it, and he said he’d want to be the one to propose, so I waited, but then he didn’t, and then I got pregnant, so he said we should put it on the back burner for a while, and then we went through a rough patch and after that he kept asking what my ring size was, but he didn’t, and then we went on holiday to Paris and he kept dropping hints that I should expect something special for our anniversary dinner but then he handed me a Now 47 CD, and I got upset, and then he said he was waiting for the right moment and if I kept asking about it it would ruin it, so I waited, and…”

@GoldenOmber

Maybe some of these men are also waiting for a sign that the women actively want to marry them as well?

I’m thinking of the ones who are like “well we’ve talked about it, and he said he’d want to be the one to propose, so I waited, but then he didn’t, and then I got pregnant, so he said we should put it on the back burner for a while, and then we went through a rough patch and after that he kept asking what my ring size was, but he didn’t, and then we went on holiday to Paris and he kept dropping hints that I should expect something special for our anniversary dinner but then he handed me a Now 47 CD, and I got upset, and then he said he was waiting for the right moment and if I kept asking about it it would ruin it, so I waited, and…”

Ah, OK. Well, tbh, in that scenario they might as well just cut their losses and leave instead of waiting for anything!

If they have already talked about marriage, I don't personally understand why either of them then needs to be "the one to propose" at that point. Surely a proposal is redundant because a discussion has already been had, and they each know where the other one stands on the issue already? So isn't it simply a question of setting the date at that point?

To me either you both know you are on that course in which case there's no element of surprise even if one is fashioned somehow - it's ultimately play acting. Not that there's anything particularly wrong if you like that sort of thing and don't mind the 'submissive' role. Or you don't know where you're headed and a proposal seems an oddly old fashioned way to find things out, and is particularly weird when the woman has to wait around or set an ultimatum for one. Sometimes I think proposals are along the same fantasy lines as a big wedding with white dress, you want to tick it off but can easily lose sight of the meaning.

But marriage isn't for me in the first place.

[“I am a woman
I feel like this.
Therefore all women feel like this. “

That’s exactly what you’re saying though Alexa. Can’t you see that? You’re saying that because you don’t feel a certain way, no women can do.]

No that’s exactly the opposite of what Alexa is saying and the vast majority of people on here. What we are saying is that not every woman feels like you do, and it doesn’t make us any less valid as women for feeling the way we do.

Nor are we "pathetic", "cringe", or "desperate" for doing things differently from you alfayruz

Old Gimmer here, I proposed to my now husband in 1970. We're still together ... Golden wedding next year ...

To the poster above, I didn’t say the tradition of men proposing was biological . Obviously that’s cultural. When I was talking about biological differences, it was with respect to childbirth, breastfeeding, attachment and the emotional / physical / psychological impacts of having children.

I believe there are fundamental differences here for men and women which obvious ramifications in the personal and public spheres. To pretend otherwise is to do women a disservice. Just because some women seem threatened by the idea if any biological differences between men and women whatsoever, doesn’t give them the right to tell me or other women how we should feel. You can relate to your husband in a totally ‘gender free’ way if that’s how you feel and that’s absolutely fine. But plenty of women and men feel differently and that’s also fine.