To think MN has it all wrong re proposals?

[alfayruz]

Inspired by a thread the other day, but also a general observation on here, I was thinking ... whenever anyone posts on MN about waiting for a proposal from their DP, you can guarantee hundreds of posts along the lines of ‘just propose to him....’ AIBU to think this is ridiculous because -

1. Nobody in actual real life does this

2. Having to propose to a man would be a massive turn off anyway so what is the point?

3. Even if you could still muster some kind of sexual attraction towards him, the bar is set at rock bottom before you even start - so why would you expect any initiative or effort from him on any other occasions or general life going forward?

AIBU?

@alfayruz

I do have the same opportunities as men. What’s stopping me? I just don’t think I have to behave, think or feel the same as men to be equal. I just do what I want really.

That's literally what most of us you're arguing with is telling you they believe everyone should do!

That everyone should do what they want, as individuals, whether that's being a SAHM / not having kids / getting married / proposing / not proposing etc rather than simply acting on expectations based on whether they have a penis or vagina.

Sometimes what people want is in line with existing gender stereotypes, sometimes it isn't. Fine either way as long as it makes them happy.

But your comment along the 'what's the point if he doesn't do man jobs, you may as well have a woman' implies that blokes who don't conform aren't 'real' men etc. Those sort of stereotypes are just pretty outdated and shitty.

Having babies for a man? I'd hope you had children because you wanted to be a parent.

As is too often evidenced, on here as well, many men don't really care about their children.

There us this very narrow vision of what constitutes an equal relationship in MN.

Apparently you need to ‘sit him down and have the marriage conversation.’ No rings, no fuss. He makes you a cup of tea and loads the dishwasher - this is real romance. What more can you expect?

Then have babies and get back to work as soon as possible because, heaven forbid, you are ‘living off a man’ for more than 2 seconds flat.

If you are not working (and preferably earning more then him) you are not ‘equal.’ No sorry, you can’t be. Equality is solely defined by money and who does what round the house, you see. If you are not 50/50 in every ‘childcare’ and ‘housework’ task at all times, then you know what’s coming don’t you? Yes... it can only be.... THE 1950s!!! Who could have guessed??

@alfayruz

There us this very narrow vision of what constitutes an equal relationship in MN.

Apparently you need to ‘sit him down and have the marriage conversation.’ No rings, no fuss. He makes you a cup of tea and loads the dishwasher - this is real romance. What more can you expect?

Then have babies and get back to work as soon as possible because, heaven forbid, you are ‘living off a man’ for more than 2 seconds flat.

If you are not working (and preferably earning more then him) you are not ‘equal.’ No sorry, you can’t be. Equality is solely defined by money and who does what round the house, you see. If you are not 50/50 in every ‘childcare’ and ‘housework’ task at all times, then you know what’s coming don’t you? Yes... it can only be.... THE 1950s!!! Who could have guessed??

I think you are misunderstanding.

There are many, many versions of an equal relationship. This includes relationships where men propose or where women stay at home with children etc.

What is categorically not equal is the idea that such arrangements are necessarily dictated by a person's sex. That is what people are disagreeing with.

I just think too many women make things way too easy for men these days. They convince themselves it’s equality, but a lot of the time, it’s not. It’s just making excuses for men who take the piss frankly, because they know they can get away with it.

@alfayruz

I just think too many women make things way too easy for men these days. They convince themselves it’s equality, but a lot of the time, it’s not. It’s just making excuses for men who take the piss frankly, because they know they can get away with it.

It sounds to me more like you're trying to convince yourself that other people don't have equality in their relationships. I can see why it might suit you to believe that.

If people feel ‘equal’ to their husbands, then they probably are, Alexa. They should know!

Just like I am fairly that last time I checked, I am indeed ‘equal’ to my husband because, you know, I’m the one married to him

In your mind, probably both adults in a marriage need to be working to be ‘equal’ - would that be right? Well, I will have to disagree with you on that.

Apparently you need to ‘sit him down and have the marriage conversation.’ No rings, no fuss. He makes you a cup of tea and loads the dishwasher - this is real romance. What more can you expect?

You're assuming no proposal means no romance. We have wedding rings and I have a lovely engagement ring and he has a fancy watch. We make a big deal about valentine's day and our anniversary.

My DH buys me the most thoughtful gifts and is incredibly romantic. He also respects me as his equal and is my biggest champion with regards my career. That means so much more to me than a 'traditional' proposal. I remember when i was doing my PhD he arranged for me to go on a writing retreat so that I could spend a full week writing....that was a lovely, romantic gesture which was personal to me.

Then have babies and get back to work as soon as possible because, heaven forbid, you are ‘living off a man’ for more than 2 seconds flat.

Because, god forbid, women actually want to work after having children?? I love my job and wanted to go back after maternity leave.

What about when it's the woman who doesn't want to be married?

@alfayruz

If people feel ‘equal’ to their husbands, then they probably are, Alexa. They should know!

Just like I am fairly that last time I checked, I am indeed ‘equal’ to my husband because, you know, I’m the one married to him

In your mind, probably both adults in a marriage need to be working to be ‘equal’ - would that be right? Well, I will have to disagree with you on that.

You clearly aren't reading my posts properly because I already said very clearly above that I think it's possible to have an equal relationship where one partner stays at home.

However, if the woman is staying at home because she is a woman and because the couple have rigid expectations about men's roles and women's roles, then no, the relationship clearly isn't equal.

I'm about to be married for the second time and both times it was through discussion/agreement, rather than a big proposal surprise. I'm reasonably sure those are far less common these days.

Sadly first dh thought a proposal was necessary and he then did a shit proposal that was basically a copy of Martin proposing to Sonja on EastEnders. I'd have preferred to go without...

@tigger1001

What about when it's the woman who doesn't want to be married?

That was me. I wasn’t keen on feminist grounds. To me, it’s an institution with unpleasant patriarchal baggage. If straight civil partnerships had been available then, I’d have done that, but they weren’t. DH was very keen and had proposed several times, and I’d said no. But then a compelling practical reason came up, so I said yes, as long as we did it quietly. Not wanting to marry him in no way meant I didn’t live or wasn’t committed to him.

There are many, many versions of an equal relationship. This includes relationships where men propose or where women stay at home with children etc.

What is categorically not equal is the idea that such arrangements are necessarily dictated by a person's sex. That is what people are disagreeing with.

This. OP do you really not get that this is the point most people are making?

In your mind, probably both adults in a marriage need to be working to be ‘equal’ - would that be right? Well, I will have to disagree with you on that.

I know this was directed at someone else but as I've been trying to make the same point as them no, I don't think both adults need to be working to be 'equal'.

I think different set ups work for different couples, I just think that the basis of who works full / part time or is a SAHP shouldn't be based on whether they have a penis or vagina.

It should be on what's best for that particular couple.

@youvegottenminuteslynn

In your mind, probably both adults in a marriage need to be working to be ‘equal’ - would that be right? Well, I will have to disagree with you on that.

I know this was directed at someone else but as I've been trying to make the same point as them no, I don't think both adults need to be working to be 'equal'.

I think different set ups work for different couples, I just think that the basis of who works full / part time or is a SAHP shouldn't be based on whether they have a penis or vagina.

It should be on what's best for that particular couple.

Exactly. I really can't for the life of me understand why this is so hard to grasp.

@Skeam Marriage is hardly patriarchal. What is patriarchal is a woman giving up her job to have kids and enable her partner’s career without the protections that marriage provides.

@alfayruz

I just think too many women make things way too easy for men these days. They convince themselves it’s equality, but a lot of the time, it’s not. It’s just making excuses for men who take the piss frankly, because they know they can get away with it.

Hmm.

I don’t ‘expect’ him to do all the Traditional Man Things, sure.

However, I have much higher expectations than the majority on Mumsnet on what equality in a relationship, or parenting. For example j wouldn’t accept not splitting the ‘wifework’ - eg any presents and cards for his side of the family are totally his responsibility, and I wouldn’t accept learned male helplessness around being crap at presents/dates/thoughtfulness.

I wouldn’t accept less than equal parenting, including night wakings (where no breastfeeding), sitting up in the night with sick kids, organising haircuts and activities and what not, as well as the emotional side.

What exactly is it that you think is ‘way too easy’ these days?

I think my partner wants to get married one day, I really can't be bothered with it all but would, maybe, if we could do it without a big wedding and lots of fuss. The thought of sending out invitations, seating plans and the worst part - finding a dress and having to wear the ruddy thing all day, makes me tired just thinking about it. 😁

If we did agree to get married, I would much rather a discussion and agreeing it that way. The thought of a surprise proposal, in public or private, fills me with nerves and I'd be willing it to be over the entire time. 😬

What is categorically not equal is the idea that such arrangements are necessarily dictated by a person's sex. That is what people are disagreeing with. ‘

Yes I do get the point people are making. But when all is said and done, I am a woman who wanted to SAH with my kids and I own that. It is what it is. How much of that is determined by my sex, I can’t say, but I would suspect my biology was / is very significant if I’m being honest. That said, I accept not all women will feel like that - of course. But I did so I’m not going to pretend otherwise and nor should I need to.

@alfayruz

I just think too many women make things way too easy for men these days. They convince themselves it’s equality, but a lot of the time, it’s not. It’s just making excuses for men who take the piss frankly, because they know they can get away with it.

How are women making it easy for men?

@alfayruz

Alexa, I I don’t need a man to behave or do everything exactly the same as I do. I’m not so insecure that I equate ‘equality’ with this kind of non-gender ‘sameness.’ Sounds suffocating to me, to be perfectly honest and it’s not who I am.

You seem to be super confused, tbh. When people talk about equality they’re not talking about both parties doing everything exactly the same, in 50/50 proportions.

They’re talking about taking on the roles they’re best suited for, or that suit them best as a couple, without it being expected of them on the basis of their sex.

It’s still a relationship of individuals - sometimes very different individuals. In the same way as I’m not the ‘same’ as my female friends, and we all have different strengths and interests, so too my husband. We cut our cloth based on who we are, not who society decrees we should despise and disrespect if they don’t give a Hollywood marriage proposal, because That’s What’s Expected Of Men.

Being honest, the idea that you would lose all sexual attraction towards someone if they didn’t propose properly is unlikely to be based on biology. I think you might need to look to socialisation and culture for that one.

@Skeam that's me too. Only in my case neither of us wanted to get married. We had a grown conversation around it and our individual reasons why and we have been together for 20 years.

I do vividly remember a couple of my friends were horrified and basically told him he needed to marry me as that was the cornerstone of a solid relationship and it needed to be a grand gesture proposal to show he was serious. He still laughs at that, not least as it showed he knew me better than they did as a grand proposal would have embarrassed me deeply and I would wonder why I would want to stay with someone who didn't know me that well. Ironically they got their grand gesture proposal and the fairytale wedding and are now both divorced.

I've always strongly believed that relationships are individual- what works for one couple won't work for another. But communication is key to any relationship. If you can't have a conversation about what you want then how does that work? Neither party are mind readers. Just be open and honest.

"You seem to be super confused, tbh. When people talk about equality they’re not talking about both parties doing everything exactly the same, in 50/50 proportions.

They’re talking about taking on the roles they’re best suited for, or that suit them best as a couple, without it being expected of them on the basis of their sex.

It’s still a relationship of individuals - sometimes very different individuals. In the same way as I’m not the ‘same’ as my female friends, and we all have different strengths and interests, so too my husband. We cut our cloth based on who we are, not who society decrees we should despise and disrespect if they don’t give a Hollywood marriage proposal, because That’s What’s Expected Of Men."

Totally agree with the above. Relationships are partnerships and should play to the strengths of each individual in that relationship, which isn't based on stereotypes of gender.

‘They’re talking about taking on the roles they’re best suited for, or that suit them best as a couple, without it being expected of them on the basis of their sex. ‘

Yes, that’s what I’m doing. I already explained that.

DH and I do what we feel were best suited for. It was never even a discussion, to be honest. Other people and their ‘expectations’ are irrelevant.

If we wanted different ‘roles,’ then that’s what would happen - obviously. I’m not confused at all.