To think MN has it all wrong re proposals?

[alfayruz]

Inspired by a thread the other day, but also a general observation on here, I was thinking ... whenever anyone posts on MN about waiting for a proposal from their DP, you can guarantee hundreds of posts along the lines of ‘just propose to him....’ AIBU to think this is ridiculous because -

1. Nobody in actual real life does this

2. Having to propose to a man would be a massive turn off anyway so what is the point?

3. Even if you could still muster some kind of sexual attraction towards him, the bar is set at rock bottom before you even start - so why would you expect any initiative or effort from him on any other occasions or general life going forward?

AIBU?

Well I am genuinely surprised that people say there is nothing they can expect from their husband simply because he a man. It kind of begs the question - what’s the point of having one if essentially, he’s no different to a woman. You might as well have a gender neutral robot, or something like that.

Straight people are weird. You genuinely only view someone as male if they take out the bins and are good at carpentry and if they aren't it's basically the same as a lesbian relationship? Is that what you're saying? Because that's what I read there.

Also, I am good at "bloke" jobs like fixing the boiler (which I did last night). Does that mean I'm not a woman anymore? Or am I just a gender neutral robot? I better break the news to DH...

@alfayruz

I’m not at all shocked that other orioles relationships are different to mine. That’s not what the thread is about really. It was more about the thread the other day (and it’s a common theme in MN) where a woman was wondering when the DP would propose and the MN advice was ‘just propose to him then.’ . I mean, obviously, if she wanted to do that, she would have done it. And I was thinking, in real life, I would never advise a friend to do that because what is the point?

I mean, if that’s the road you’re going down, what’s the point of marriage at all, apart from legal protection? It’s a bit of a bizarre institution when you think about it. (I’m very happily married but it’s objectively a pretty weird social construct with lots of baggage and hangovers from previous eras.) Whats the point of a proposal at all?

I do find it very weird that some people think that a proposal only has meaning if it comes from a man; from a women it’s desperate and shrewish and he’ll feel trapped. I guess I’m lucky in my own husband that he doesn’t have that kind of mindset.

We do have a couple of jobs/expectations in our relationship that are strictly divided by the sex of the person: being pregnant, giving birth and breastfeeding. Everything else is people, not man/woman. That includes buying flowers and little gifts, organising childcare, taking parental leave, wiping up children’s vomit, doing the bins, the works. Who’s there? Who’s better able to do it? Who wants to do a nice thing for the other person?

What’s the point? The point is that we are two people who love and are committed to each other.

I find this thread very depressing. I thought we had thrown out that whole narrative that women are supposed to do this and feel this, and men are supposed to do that and feel that. Do these gender stereotypes really benefit anyone? All I can see they do is question peoples’ understanding of sex, gender, and themselves. I’m a woman, I want an equal partner, material gifts of supposed romance don’t do anything for me, I don’t want to be treated like a princess. Am I really a woman? I like the idea of proposing, I like DIY and engineering, maybe I’m a man, maybe that would make my preferences more acceptable to society? No, it’s bonkers and trying to say to women they are lying to themselves like some posters here have if they don’t want to be showered with gifts, or their husband isn’t a ‘proper man’ if he doesn’t propose or buy a valentine’s card is very sad and shows we have so much to do get out of these ridiculous gender tropes.

Also, I am good at "bloke" jobs like fixing the boiler (which I did last night). Does that mean I'm not a woman anymore? Or am I just a gender neutral robot? I better break the news to DH..

I’m an excellent amateur plumber and a lot better with the drill than DH. He is GREAT at keeping on top the laundry in a way that I totally fail to do.

I wonder why he keeps me around if I’m not Womaning effectively.

@alfayruz

I’m not at all shocked that other orioles relationships are different to mine. That’s not what the thread is about really. It was more about the thread the other day (and it’s a common theme in MN) where a woman was wondering when the DP would propose and the MN advice was ‘just propose to him then.’ . I mean, obviously, if she wanted to do that, she would have done it. And I was thinking, in real life, I would never advise a friend to do that because what is the point?

If I had a friend who was unhappy about the lack of proposal but who wouldn't at least broach the subject with her partner, I would wonder why they couldn't at least discuss long term plans and goals and I would ask why they were talking to me and not their partner about it.

Surely that's something that is discussed? If you don't share the same long term plans then you both need to know that in order to decide whether you can compromise or whether you need to walk away. I don't see the point in limping along in a relationship hoping for something to happen but not actually do anything about it.

DH and I are both crap at DIY. We just pay someone else to do it!

Good post, @JassyRadlett. That's how it works here, and how it works in all the other functional relationships among people I know.

I'm intuiting a deeply depressing subtext to many of the posts which are keenest on The Man Proposes stuff, and it seems to be 'I have zero expectations for this man in terms of him making an effort of any kind after when we're actually married, so this is my one and only chance to genuinely expect some kind of display of 'romance' and putting himself out for the sake of our relationship.'

Most depressingly, this is often said by women who have been living with their partner for years, often with children together, so they know perfectly well what married life with the same man will be like, and it's some kind of wistfulness about a different type of relationship they don't believe is possible. And it's easier to believe it's impossible just as it's easier to believe that non-'desperate' women happily propose to men, and go on to have happy and fulfilled marriages otherwise you would need to ask yourself why you married Mr Grunting Selfish Lout, when other types of men are available.

@alfayruz

Well I am genuinely surprised that people say there is nothing they can expect from their husband simply because he a man. It kind of begs the question - what’s the point of having one if essentially, he’s no different to a woman. You might as well have a gender neutral robot, or something like that.

Seriously? You do realise it's 2022??

@alfayruz

“There is nothing in our shared life that I would expect him to do simply because he’s a man. “

Really? Nothing at all?

No, nothing. Gender stereotypes have no place in my relationship.

‘I'm intuiting a deeply depressing subtext to many of the posts which are keenest on The Man Proposes stuff, and it seems to be 'I have zero expectations for this man in terms of him making an effort of any kind after when we're actually married,’

Well I can only speak for myself, but the reality is the total opposite, to be honest. I know who I am and I know what I want. It’s because I have high expectations from a man that I would expect him to get his act together and propose in a meaningful way. Do you think I would have put myself in a situation of having babies for a man who couldn’t even be bothered to propose? You must be joking! Why pander to this kind of nonsense? It’s not equality. It’s just making excuses for feeble behaviour and men who will probably never step up in more ways than one. I’d rather be single than try and resign myself to that.

@alfayruz

‘I'm intuiting a deeply depressing subtext to many of the posts which are keenest on The Man Proposes stuff, and it seems to be 'I have zero expectations for this man in terms of him making an effort of any kind after when we're actually married,’

Well I can only speak for myself, but the reality is the total opposite, to be honest. I know who I am and I know what I want. It’s because I have high expectations from a man that I would expect him to get his act together and propose in a meaningful way. Do you think I would have put myself in a situation of having babies for a man who couldn’t even be bothered to propose? You must be joking! Why pander to this kind of nonsense? It’s not equality. It’s just making excuses for feeble behaviour and men who will probably never step up in more ways than one. I’d rather be single than try and resign myself to that.

I find it quite sad that you don't seem able to conceive of real equality in a relationship. On the one hand, it sounds like you're happy with your life and with your relationship, but on the other hand, I can't get my head around why anyone would choose those rigid old gender stereotypes.

You say that you have high expectations, but I really don't see that at all. High expectations in my view would equate to true equality and mutual respect. Not "romantic" gestures by way of compensation for a complete imbalance of power in the relationship.

And fwiw, I would rather be single too than resign myself to being in an unequal relationship.

Alexa, I I don’t need a man to behave or do everything exactly the same as I do. I’m not so insecure that I equate ‘equality’ with this kind of non-gender ‘sameness.’ Sounds suffocating to me, to be perfectly honest and it’s not who I am.

Totally agree with you Alexa. I feel pretty bad for the poster who feels the need to reduce things to weird gender stereotypes. It’s pretty sad to think that some people feel that all men have to do is propose and everything else is hunkydory. What an odd outlook.

Of course proposing doesn’t mean everything is going to be ‘hunkydory.’

It’s not adhering to ‘gender stereotypes’ either. It’s just being honest about who I am and what I look for in a husband and father. We are all different and thank god for that.

@alfayruz

Alexa, I I don’t need a man to behave or do everything exactly the same as I do. I’m not so insecure that I equate ‘equality’ with this kind of non-gender ‘sameness.’ Sounds suffocating to me, to be perfectly honest and it’s not who I am.

It's weird to me that you think women are insecure for wanting to have the same opportunities in life as men, or for not wanting to be pigeonholed into certain ways of feeling or behaving simply because of their sex. I cannot imagine how you would arrive at that conclusion.

I am wondering if perhaps it is you who is rather insecure about your own choices, and that it makes you feel better to assume that nobody really has an equal relationship in any case?

I honestly don't get what could possibly be 'suffocating' about playing to your strengths and working as a team rather than conforming to gender roles because of your sex.

Your set up works for you OP and that's great! Those choices work for you, your partner and future family. It's just odd that you say you make those choices based on there being 'things a man does' and 'things a woman does' whereas other couples might have the exact same set up as you but not by an arbitrary division of labour based on to 'penis tasks' and 'vagina tasks', just due to individual strengths and preferences.

The fact you see a man who doesn't do 'man jobs' as useless is sad. And the fact you think that women who don't find men who would insist on sticking to gender stereotypes attractive 'may as well' be with a woman shows a very strange and simplicity attitude towards sexuality.

That was meant to say simplified not simplicity

Well I can only speak for myself, but the reality is the total opposite, to be honest. I know who I am and I know what I want. It’s because I have high expectations from a man that I would expect him to get his act together and propose in a meaningful way.

For other people 'getting their act together' means so much more than a proposal which, at the end of the day, is just words. I want an adult who treats me as his equal and with respect and my DH can expect that in return.

Do you think I would have put myself in a situation of having babies for a man who couldn’t even be bothered to propose? You must be joking! Why pander to this kind of nonsense? It’s not equality. It’s just making excuses for feeble behaviour and men who will probably never step up in more ways than one. I’d rather be single than try and resign myself to that.

Do you genuinely believe that men who don't do the big, romantic proposal aren't going to step up and be great husbands and fathers? You could not be more wrong. Do you honestly think acting up to a gender stereotype is a marker of a good man? There isn't anything wrong with being proposed to, but it doesn't make the men who do this better than those who are in relationships where marriage was something that was mutually agreed upon.
As adults in an equal relationship we decided that marriage and starting a family was important to us. I didn't need to wait for him to ask....I'm a big girl who is capable of having that conversation.
DH is a wonderful husband and fantastic dad - I genuinely couldn't ask for anyone better. How would him proposing have changed that?

FYI i've had the big gesture proposal and he turned out to be a terrible husband and I thank my lucky stars we never had kids because I've heard he's a shit dad too.

Yes @youvegottenminuteslynn, I don't understand how it can be suffocating to be treated as an individual either. I would be far more suffocated if I was forced into a particular role or tasks just because I happen to be female!

Nope you were using outdated stereotypes as you used the words ‘man’ and ‘woman’ generally, not in reference to your specific partner (whom I hope has more going for him than just being a man). It’s fine to want what you want and to like what you like as long as you remember that it’s because you are an individual and nothing to do with your sex.

I do have the same opportunities as men. What’s stopping me? I just don’t think I have to behave, think or feel the same as men to be equal. I just do what I want really.

The comment about "having babies for a man" is also very telling. I had my dc because I wanted to be a mum. I wasn't having a baby for my DH, that's for sure! He just happened to be a willing participant!

@alfayruz

Of course proposing doesn’t mean everything is going to be ‘hunkydory.’

It’s not adhering to ‘gender stereotypes’ either. It’s just being honest about who I am and what I look for in a husband and father. We are all different and thank god for that.

But you do seem quite hung up on gender differences.......and the expectations that men and women should behave in a particular way. I actively strive to move away from this way of thinking.

@Oesro

I don’t know. But with the absolute idiocy of how many adults conduct their relationships and the impact on their children with various partners I think a lot of people could do with sitting down at the table and being grown ups about marriage

Spot on.