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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Colleague sacked for abuse, shocked

186 replies

Cheesestring11 · 12/02/2022 16:13

She was caught on camera verbally abusing an elderly man with dementia, and sacked with immediate effect.

I'm shocked, I got on well with her, she wasn't perfect but I thought she had a good heart generally.

Haven't spoken to her in over a week, but I believe the event happened this week.

Not sure what to do really, just shocked that she could have done it, everyone makes mistakes but that was just nasty. Would you cut contact with her?

OP posts:
Mydogmylife · 12/02/2022 20:17

@EmpressCixi

I’d want her side of the story first. Some of those harmless dementia elderly think they’re 20 and it’s 1960 and think they can still legally cop a feel (sexually assault you).
You sound lovely - not!! Becoming inappropriate is sadly a very common symptom of dementia, they are not thinking to themselves ' great, I can cop a feel and get away with it' any carer will have been trained in how to deal with this
cuno · 12/02/2022 20:17

@PinkSyCo

All these people making excuses for this woman. I wonder if you’d be so quick to defend a frazzled nanny or nursery worker who verbally abused your child. I very much doubt it somehow.
Absolutely. And the thing is I prefer worst case scenario you're not keeping in touch with someone fairly nice and possibly hurt their feelings, rather than worst case scenario you're keeping in touch with an abuser! Doesn't mean you need to publicly condemn the woman or send her nasty messages, just stop talking to her.
Staffy1 · 12/02/2022 20:20

@PinkSyCo

All these people making excuses for this woman. I wonder if you’d be so quick to defend a frazzled nanny or nursery worker who verbally abused your child. I very much doubt it somehow.
Probably not, but just from experience, it’s more rewarding and easier to have compassion for children. Not that that is an excuse to mistreat dementia patients, but just saying, it can’t be an easy job.
Peoniesandcream · 12/02/2022 20:22

I've been a nurse in an elderly care ward where lots of patients have dementia for several years and was a HCA in care homes for a long time before that. I've had aggressive patients, ones say and do sexual explicit things but have never lost my temper with them. You have to have a lot of patience for the role and for her to be sacked immediately it would need to be pretty serious.

SweetFelicityArkright · 12/02/2022 20:36

Becoming inappropriate is sadly a very common symptom of dementia, they are not thinking to themselves ' great, I can cop a feel and get away with it' any carer will have been trained in how to deal with this

That's the thing though, by and large we're not trained to deal with this type of behaviour, nor supported through it. It's seen as part of the job so just get on with it. It costs money to do that, money no one wants to part with.

It doesn't hurt any less when someone who has dementia belts you in the face than if someone without dementia does it, it doesn't cause less injury, you don't bleed less.

I personally find the verbal/sexual side easier to deal with because I am aware that it's the disease talking and not necessarily the person. I can measure my response and tailor accordingly. I haven't been trained to do that though, anywhere I've worked. Oh I've attended the 'challenging' behaviour workshops that tell me actually, it's probably my fault for not meeting their care needs, but don't actually tell me how to get a person who has soiled themselves, doesn't realise and fights tooth and nail when I attempt to clean them up, to do so calmly so I can meet their care needs. It also doesn't tell me how to be able to spend an hour or more talking someone round to recieving care, or putting their clothes on today, or eating their meal whilst also providing care to the rest of the residents too, because I can't defy the laws of physics.

There's no excuse to abuse vulnerable people, however we need to make sure that the carers have the training, tools and equipment (and there are enough of them) to be able to deliver care properly, in an unrushed and sensitive manner, rather than the way it is now.

Society gets up in arms about stuff like this, rarely are they interested in looking a little deeper to find out the systematic failures that lead to it happening.

PinkSyCo · 12/02/2022 20:39

Probably not, but just from experience, it’s more rewarding and easier to have compassion for children. Not that that is an excuse to mistreat dementia patients, but just saying, it can’t be an easy job.

What you’ve just said there sadly just confirms the terrible attitude we have to our elderly in this country. I have been a carer of the elderly in residential homes for well over 20 years and have never once have I raised my voice at any resident no matter what. They deserve respect, compassion, kindness and patience just as much as children do.

ancientgran · 12/02/2022 20:42

[quote godmum56]@ancientgran
"This is true and obviously people have to lose their job but it doesn't make them a monster in every case. I worked with someone in mental health, he handled physical abuse from service users in the proper way but one day a service user caught him unawares, punched him and he instinctively hit back. It was a human reaction, he lost his job but I don't think he was a monster, he was just caught offguard and reacted."

no one is saying that the person is a monster but they were obviously in the wrong job. If you are someone who instinctively reacts then you can't be in a job with violent patients....actually while yes they had to leave the job, I see one instinctive blow as less heinous than losing it and yelling. I stand by my comment that the OP should not be staying in touch.[/quote]
The word monster might not have been used but "shun her" "disgusting" "cut contact" "disgusting" when people don't know the context.

I see physical abuse as less acceptable but for either yes lose the job but accept that one occasion of shouting does not make someone a monster. How many people can say that they have never lost it and said something nasty in their life?

godmum56 · 12/02/2022 20:44

@Retisestress

It depends on the background. Was the manager trying to find a reason to get rid of her and used a flimsy excuse that she was abusive ie sounding impatient or was it that she very obviously was abusive? You know this person and what she is normally like..use your own judgement and not the opinions of strangers!
The OP says caught on camera.....that doesn't sound like a flimsy excuse and its not acceptable to be "sounding impatient" either. What planet are you from?
godmum56 · 12/02/2022 20:48

@ancientgran

"godmum56
@ancientgran
"This is true and obviously people have to lose their job but it doesn't make them a monster in every case. I worked with someone in mental health, he handled physical abuse from service users in the proper way but one day a service user caught him unawares, punched him and he instinctively hit back. It was a human reaction, he lost his job but I don't think he was a monster, he was just caught offguard and reacted."

"no one is saying that the person is a monster but they were obviously in the wrong job. If you are someone who instinctively reacts then you can't be in a job with violent patients....actually while yes they had to leave the job, I see one instinctive blow as less heinous than losing it and yelling. I stand by my comment that the OP should not be staying in touch.
The word monster might not have been used but "shun her" "disgusting" "cut contact" "disgusting" when people don't know the context.

I see physical abuse as less acceptable but for either yes lose the job but accept that one occasion of shouting does not make someone a monster. How many people can say that they have never lost it and said something nasty in their life?"

in my professional career of 30 ish years working with people with dementia, strokes and head injuries with all kinds of challenging behaviours, I have NEVER "said something nasty" to a patient. Yes at times, you pause, step away, leave the room if its safe to do so, but you NEVER NEVER abuse a patient EVER.

ancientgran · 12/02/2022 20:52

[quote godmum56]**@ancientgran

"godmum56
@ancientgran
"This is true and obviously people have to lose their job but it doesn't make them a monster in every case. I worked with someone in mental health, he handled physical abuse from service users in the proper way but one day a service user caught him unawares, punched him and he instinctively hit back. It was a human reaction, he lost his job but I don't think he was a monster, he was just caught offguard and reacted."

"no one is saying that the person is a monster but they were obviously in the wrong job. If you are someone who instinctively reacts then you can't be in a job with violent patients....actually while yes they had to leave the job, I see one instinctive blow as less heinous than losing it and yelling. I stand by my comment that the OP should not be staying in touch.
The word monster might not have been used but "shun her" "disgusting" "cut contact" "disgusting" when people don't know the context.

I see physical abuse as less acceptable but for either yes lose the job but accept that one occasion of shouting does not make someone a monster. How many people can say that they have never lost it and said something nasty in their life?"

in my professional career of 30 ish years working with people with dementia, strokes and head injuries with all kinds of challenging behaviours, I have NEVER "said something nasty" to a patient. Yes at times, you pause, step away, leave the room if its safe to do so, but you NEVER NEVER abuse a patient EVER.[/quote]
But people are human and it happens, sometimes the person is a bad person but sometimes they aren't a bad person, just a person who isn't coping in some way. They need to leave the job but that doesn't mean they are disgusting or need to be vilified.

Not everyone is perfect. The truth is no one is perfect, not even you.

MissMaple82 · 12/02/2022 20:53

Absolutely cut contact. Why do you even want to communicate with a horrible piece of scum that she clearly is!

SiliconDioxide79 · 12/02/2022 20:57

I think that those who work with people with dementia have high levels of patience and compassion. They also get terrible pay. Lack of support.

I work as a teacher and if I had been on camera the whole time I have definitely not always been 100% patient with vulnerable people. We aren’t robots. It’s sad that these professions are not well supported. If you think reaching out to this person is important then you should do it. What if she had a whole load of terrible thingg gf a goi on in her personal life and just made a bad judgement. She could need a friend. I’m guessing that not all of these people posting that she should be basically ostracised actually work in a dementia care setting. Poor, poor chap. But also I think that you asking this question shows that life isn’t just simple.

godmum56 · 12/02/2022 20:59

@ancientgran
oh I am not perfect! far from it!
I also commented that the OP shouldn't abuse them as other posters had suggested.

BUT People who work in these circumstances do need coping skills and procedures precisely because we aren't perfect. I stand by my comment that the OP should cut contact.

Shasha3709 · 12/02/2022 21:07

Have worked in Dementia care for 30 years no excuse for abuse. I have been spat at bitten punched and kicked no way would I react verbally or otherwise. Walk away Not one excuse is valid for this !!!!

LadyPropane · 12/02/2022 21:10

How do you know this? You say she was caught in camera - did you see the footage?

shaneTwane · 12/02/2022 21:15

As a former dementia carer, what the fuck are you asking??!!

My nonna has dementia now and if I ever caught someone abusing her in any way I would fucking do something awful.

Staffy1 · 12/02/2022 21:19

@PinkSyCo

Probably not, but just from experience, it’s more rewarding and easier to have compassion for children. Not that that is an excuse to mistreat dementia patients, but just saying, it can’t be an easy job.

What you’ve just said there sadly just confirms the terrible attitude we have to our elderly in this country. I have been a carer of the elderly in residential homes for well over 20 years and have never once have I raised my voice at any resident no matter what. They deserve respect, compassion, kindness and patience just as much as children do.

I didn’t say they didn’t deserve it, I said it’s not as easy. I have great admiration for you and anyone who works with dementia patients, but as I have said, I couldn’t do it, so I can’t condemn anyone who had a one off bad response.
AutomaticMoon · 12/02/2022 21:21

@SweetFelicityArkright

“Society gets up in arms about stuff like this, rarely are they interested in looking a little deeper to find out the systematic failures that lead to it happening.”

I find this too.

Stompythedinosaur · 12/02/2022 21:23

I'm a nurse who has had a colleague who was found to be being abusive. I cut contact, I dont need people like that in my life.

Lifeisaminestrone · 12/02/2022 21:25

I guess the concern here lies with humanity - how can a friend do this? We ask this about the Holocaust, murder, DV, animal cruelty and child neglect.

It confuses well intentioned people as they think it is unimaginable. Sadly it does happen and why horror stories are in the news every day. People’s behaviours are not necessarily aligned to our own and I think that there are genuinely evil people.

I would not be able to be friends with that individual, like I was not able to respect a seemingly lovely Christian old lady near me, whom I later discovered was anti-Semitic.

If you are friends with those individuals you are accepting that behaviour. That just doesn’t sit right with me.

SweetFelicityArkright · 12/02/2022 21:35

[quote AutomaticMoon]@SweetFelicityArkright

“Society gets up in arms about stuff like this, rarely are they interested in looking a little deeper to find out the systematic failures that lead to it happening.”

I find this too.[/quote]
Yes and that's why it keeps happening.

If carers were trained in how to deal with the symptoms of these illnesses effectively, had enough time and resources to do so properly and were supported in dealing with the fall out of being assaulted, verbally abused and sexually assaulted/abused on a daily basis, then care would improve because the bad ones would be easier to spot for a start and those genuinely struggling would have the support they need - thus enabling a workforce better equipped to deal with the needs of dementia patients.

A story like this breaks and it's all about that person, people are understandably angry. The carer is sacked and people feel like justice has been done and go back to their own lives feeling better about it.
And no one addresses the systematic failures that mean it keeps happening.

AutomaticMoon · 12/02/2022 21:50

@SweetFelicityArkright Very well said. It’s unacceptable that care workers are supposed to do very tough jobs for basic minimum wage, for night shifts too. Even not paid at all, like the back pay for night shifts and the Supreme Court agreeing with this decision cause it would bankrupt the charity to pay the correct back pay. While the Mencap CEO gets £200K. That’s a fair judgement? Incredible.

MadameTuffington2 · 12/02/2022 22:00

So much judgemental twattery on this thread (on both sides).

I have worked on a complex dementia unit for 5 years. Interestingly, we are currently in the midst of a CQC investigation about one staff member and abuse of residents.

I have worked with many different types of staff and the only way to empathetically and efficiently do this job is to get clued up on how dementia affects people’s behaviour. Add to this immense frailty and other medical issues and everyone (not least the residents) has a lot to contend with.

You cannot be every resident’s best friend and have endless cuppas, chats and do crafts - Care is physically labour intensive and mentally challenging but you absolutely must always treat every single person you look after with respect, humour and compassion. You must take any small opportunity to be friendly and interested in them.

You must have excellent time management and patience. It can be bloody exasperating and there are naturally some residents we prefer but I have never been rude or nasty to anyone I look after - ‘duty of care’ - if you can’t offer this then go and work at a desk or in a shop.

OP - I would want to know the circumstances as these situations are always complex - if it was repeated or severe abuse, I would fuck her off.

Caring needs to be professionalised and paid better.

AutomaticMoon · 12/02/2022 22:00

@SweetFelicityArkright

And proper training is obviously crucial, not just lip service/tick box exercise type of training.

As a care worker, when a male colleague sexually harassed me and another 3 verbally abused me, the managers giggled, blamed the sexual harassment on the guy being deaf Hmm, said it’s not their responsibility, said I should just ignore being verbally abused, on and on, the toxicity went. They really destroyed my mental health. This male colleague is allowed to be with vulnerable women who can’t even communicate if he does something to them. Managers are happy as long as the shifts are filled, they will run staff into the ground without a care in the world. In care work I met some of the least caring and empathetic people in my whole working life (I’m almost 40) it was truly astounding and demoralising.

Nat6999 · 12/02/2022 22:03

Ds was sexually assaulted over a period of 3 months by one of exh's carers.