Does this sound normal behaviour for a ten year old?

[Missmummy88]

My son has always had big melts downs, think big toddler tantrums screaming shouting etc - then when he hit about 5-6 he would get angry and swipe things off sides push over chairs/laundry’s baskets. Now he is ten and he’s still being distrucyive but now very verbally abusive.

This happens most days.

Today he was angry with me because I told him his two hour tech was over (he has another hour at lunch). This is an arrangement he is aware of - I didn’t just rip tech away.

He then started rolling eyes, stomping about etc went upstairs where he’s 6 yo brother was playing Lego and with 2 minutes screaming and crying from my 6yo with a gash to the head where ten year old has thrown a book at him.

I tell him off & tell him he has now lost his lunch time hour. He loses it, starts telling me to fuck off you big fat idiot why do you hate everyone. Etc etc. From past experience I know this is escalating behaviour so I remove myself and 6yo to a safe space - he then let’s rip. Four boxes of Lego tipped everywhere - stuff thrown across the room and then he comes in with a piece of paper saying fuck off written on.

I ignore and when he leaves my room 6yo schrubches up and puts in bin.

Ten year old comes in demanding his paper screaming you fucking idiots multiple times.

He then walks around the house behind me about how awful a mum I am etc.

(I’m not awful just average - try my hardest like we all do!)

About one minute later he’s completely snapped out of it & is getting his shoes on to go to his friends house.

This is a common occurrence- meltdowns & verbal abuse.

He does get punished by removal of privileges like tech / no football cards etc. I just don’t do it while he’s melting as from experience he just gets worse so I wait until he’s calm to talk to him about it.

He has an asd assessment next week which I’ve paid for privately as school don’t see any of this behaviour.

I know this isn’t normal but does it sound like asd or does he just hate me?!

@xxlostxx

I have taught so many kids whose parents had been told the kids had no SEN and it was all down to parenting. Schools in my area are the gatekeepers for assessment so if you can't get them to agree it is necessary, you're stuffed.

Every. Single. One of those children has since gained a diagnosis.

I was told DS didn't have ADHD because he didn't misbehave in class. Guess what...and methylphenidate changed his life.

DD couldn't have autism cos she had friends. Guess what...and she also probably has ADHD, but she now also has OCD, an eating disorder, trashed mental health and a tic disorder from the stress of mainstream, particularly the refusal of her secondary to believe that her (diagnosed) condition meant she had any needs in school.

'Oh well we don't see it'
'She's melting down every morning and evening'
'Yes but we don't see it, she's top of her class'
Ffs.

One of my ex students wasn't autistic because they were well behaved and clever and the fact their secondary attendance dropped to 20% and the only days they were in school were days they were dragged there kicking and screaming was down to the parents.

There is nowhere near enough understanding of SEN in mainstream education or in society.

Even with a diagnosis there are plenty of school staff who will ignore strategies given as 'they don't see it'.

Even when DS had his interview for PIP, they were taking the fact he has stellar GCSE results to suggest that he doesn't need help. Yes he is blisteringly intelligent but his disabilities mean he is incapable of independent life.

It really angers me. So many kids are being failed because it is easier to blame the parents than to listen to them, and people find it easier to adhere to the 90s red top tabloid stereotypes of ND than to actually educate themselves.

@OakRowan

You let him go to his friend's house after all that, especially after he had cut your other younger son's head open throwing something at him? Wow.

I agree you don't punish other families though especially if they had already booked and paid for an activity.

Also gets him out of the situation and able to calm down.

I agree about the "sudden death" to tech time, especially as so many games don't appear to have pause buttons. But I also agree that if he can't cope with stopping, then he needs not to play it at all or at least much less often.

Doesn't sound normal but 2 hours gaming doesn't sound good for him. Does he have any physical activity or other things he can do at the weekend? My active 9 year old has to have a range of activities in place to get through the weekend peacefully. If i let him game for hours his behaviour would definitely be worse. Sounds like hes addicted to it and you should try cutting it down and give him other outlets.

We don't know whether the child can stop himself or not. You are assuming and guessing, just like everyone else.

You are right - I should have said he probably already knows it is unacceptable and he probably can't stop himself but if he has autism he may not even have made that connection yet. In any case if he doesn't already know it's unacceptable then punishment alone is not likely to make that connection for him.

that behaviour has to stop. It isn't actually compulsory to provide a magic solution every time one comments on MN, you know.

It's not compulsory to provide a solution, no, but it's deeply unhelpful to say that kind of thing if you don't have any ideas how to improve it.

I agree that the OP needs to take steps to protect her younger son from his brother's anger. From what she says it's an immediate lash out rather than a long-term grudge so if she can predict her older son's reaction and focus on protecting her youngest at the times when her older son is most likely to lash out - for example, when she has just taken away his screen time! - that should make it more possible.

I know one parent who taught her DD to run out of the house and go to a neighbour when her older brother started getting agitated and angry. That's probably the most extreme I've met.

@Chely

Our 11 year old is awaiting assesment but he wouldn't behave like that, especially not towards me. I think you need to seek professional help ASAP. This kind of behaviour will continue to escalate if you don't find ways to manage it early.

Can you really not see that everyone is different and all Every person who has asd Will present differently. The quote ‘if you’ve met one person with additional needs, then you’ve met one person with additional needs’ is so true.

My dd only presents in an aggressive way towards me, because I am her safe place. She has trust that I won’t abandon her when she needs help the most.

She has only ever had one anxiety attack at school and that was towards me after school had completely overwhelmed her - she held it together until I got there and then let it all out. The shock on the faces of the staff who witnessed it was massive. They finally believed what I had been saying and afterwards said how distressing they found It to witness.

Dd was diagnosed over 12 months ago and we still haven’t received any support or help despite being on waiting lists. I’ve been trying to get help for her for over half of her life and she’s 12 now, so if you are able to give me any pointers on where to access this magical support you suggest op uses, I’d be really grateful for the tips. As I said earlier (and it’s something you need to prepare for if your dc is waiting for assessment and might need support), there is very little support out there.

It's the screens. Lots of parents I have spoken to have had this experience, although not to the extent you describe. Shouting, frustration and aggressive behaviour after gaming. They are v addictive.

Are there other times when he shows this behaviour? What are the triggers? Transitioning to come away from the screen as others have mentioned seems to be the issue in this scenario

@whydobirds

This sounds way more than "naughty" though Orlando, and at an age where most children no longer exhibit behaviours like this. It is completely dysregulated. A NT child would learn after a few removals of privileges that it wasn't worth the behaviour. A ND child can't help it and no amount of punishment will address it. They need help learning the tools with which to regulate their behaviour. OP doesn't mention that her younger child exhibits this which suggests it's not necessarily down to parenting - although even if he is diagnosed ND she will be told by many professionals that it's her parenting before they accept his level of need, ime.

“ A NT child would learn after a few removals of privileges that it wasn't worth the behaviour.” A good point, but I’d emphasize this really only applies in cases where the parent does actually remove privileges and/or the child cares more about the particular privilege lost than they desire to keep up the poor behaviour.

A parent who gives in or doesn’t give consequences that the child minds enough is likely to see the behaviour repeat over and over again. In such cases, the NT child might learn it WAS worth the behaviour.

My kids are not NT and there is no way I would let anyone trash the house, distespect family like that and then toddle off with their friends.

Things aren't always easy in our house, but if my kids were trashing the house and couldn't control themselves enough to clean it up and show remorse I would be seriously worried they would lose control in the swimming pool and potentially put themselves and others at risk.

I appreciate the other parent had paid, but you should have called and lied, said your kid was sick last minute and then arranged to take the kids out in return the following week.

ASD.

Try prevention.
Regular calming activities (most days)
Keep blood sugar up
Keep fluid intake up
Keep noise levels down.

Don't leave the DC's together. Your job to keep them separate and protect the little one. If your older one is getting wound up intervene with whatever calms him before it gets to level five. (mine goes on their phone)

He can learn to control meltdowns but that comes with age/development and the ability to recognise when they are getting agitated and take preventative steps themself. It will probably be a while yet and not perfect.

My teen is getting there.

Remember you need to parent differently with a ND kid.

(Violence still has consequences in that they are removed from the trigger)

Try praising any effort to control/prevent meltdowns (mine is learning to get a snack)

Do not talk or reason when in meltdown. He has gone into emotions only mode. A firm hug may help. Or foot/hand massage/ or food or a safe space under a desk say. You have to find his thing.

Good luck.

I really wish people wouldn’t say that children with asd/adhd in happy homes save their worst behaviour for home. This is not true and very hurtful! We have always parented the child we have had and anticipate difficult situations and diffuse. He is a nightmare at school, especially now he feels his teacher doesn’t like him. He is currently undergoing a dual diagnosis privately as its a 4 year wait here. I have struggled since he was a baby to think of myself as a good mum because he can’t behave the same as everyone else at school. I now realise that I regulate him and am in fact a really good mum. Please don’t make assumptions. OP - I recommend looking into a diagnosis. The pieces may just fall into place.

@emsmar

If the school don't see it - it's definitely a home problem.

Nope. Not necessarily. School couldn't see dd's autism either. Funnily enough the assessor could and pointed out that the things the sendco had written on the form should have caused them to see the issue.

Sounds like my autistic nephew
good luck with your assessment
supportive friends
strategies take time take time to figure out and sometime you think you've cracked it and then BAM!!
N is an adult now and we have learned most of the signs of a blow up stewing but you cannot predict what the world will say to them at school or college and then they come home to you and sometimes it's bedtime or 3 weeks later randomly the damn breaks and your left going wtf!!!!

I have an ASD son who is 10 and is obsessed by tech. You're going to have to get much firmer boundaries OP. He needs tools and a calm down routine. Maybe a swing in his bedroom that he twist up in and then spin? Things to squeeze? Things that are safe to throw? A punching bag? Find out what the sensory need is and then provide it. Tell him his behaviour is way out of court but you're going to help him to find a different way. You need to redirect him to his "calm down" space when he starts to get wound up. I'd also take all tech away until the hurting people stops. Tell him it's your job to keep everyone safe and he can't control himself when tech time is over so it's gone. Withstand the tantrum but don't give in.

No, it doesn’t sound like ASD, and frankly it’s insulting to children whom DO have an ASD diagnosis to compare his behaviour with their disability.
Out of interest, when he put his shoes on to go to his friend, after assaulting his brother and verbally abusing you both, what did you do?
I think you need to get a referral for the Triple P parenting programme. Which if he DID get a diagnosis, you’d be expected to do anyway.

@Missmummy88

We have a great support network - stable and loving relationship with his dad, grandparents all local and involved , I have some lovely friends and am good friends with his friends parents. Me and his dad both work (me part time) & no financial issues. On paper all good but in reality our home feels like a war zone.

I let him go because it had been arranged for weeks and friends mum had already booked swimming so didn’t feel it fair to ruin their day too!

He has some sensory issues a bit picky with food but not extreme. Sleeps well. Terrible organisational skills - loses everything - Forgets everything. Etc

Letting him go was a big big mistake. What message have you sent to his brother whom he assaulted? That it’s ok to use violence, mummy will let me off.

@Lovemusic33

Am I the only parent of dc with ASD that doesn’t see this kind of behaviour? My dc wouldn’t dare swear at me or throw things around the house. I have to say I’m pretty relaxed with tech time, I do pick my battles but my dc rarely push boundaries.

Some kids can swear and shout without have ASD or ADHD, the same as not all kids with ASD/ADHD are naughty and having ASD/ADHD is no excuse to behave this way.

One of my autistic kids doest swear or throw things round the house either....

Same parent, same condition, different presentations.

@Soontobe60

No, it doesn’t sound like ASD, and frankly it’s insulting to children whom DO have an ASD diagnosis to compare his behaviour with their disability. Out of interest, when he put his shoes on to go to his friend, after assaulting his brother and verbally abusing you both, what did you do? I think you need to get a referral for the Triple P parenting programme. Which if he DID get a diagnosis, you’d be expected to do anyway.

It sounds very much like ASD to me any many other posters on this thread. My dd does have a diagnosis. I think your experience of autism and how it can present is very limited. And as for triple P course, it is generally aimed for parents of NT children, the strategies are unlikely to work with a child who is ND.

I can't comment on the diagnosis but I can say two of my children act horrifically as a direct result of gaming/youtube and we've had to work hard to get it under control by shoving them outside instead, pushing them to read/do art/play board games/build lego ... yes tech is great teaches them problem solving yada yada yada but actually in real life it over stimulates kids too much and they can't handle it. Best of luck with it all op

@xxlostxx
Sorry, I didn’t realise you were a paediatrician or child psychiatrist!
CAMHS in my LA won’t even accept a referral for assessment of ASD of a child demonstrating such behaviours at home until the parent has completed Triple P. But hey, I’ve only got 30 years experience in SEN

I had war with my NT son at that age over tech. I changed approach because it became like forbidden fruit. He was obsessed for 2 weeks then had a normal relationship with it after that.

My younger son has ASD I didn't know at the time but I did the same approach and didn't set limits. That was like... 8 years ago and I am still waiting for him to normalise. What it made me realise is that it's fine. He's completely well adjusted child who smashed his GCSEs and is doing very well at his A Levels. The way his ASD is he was never going to be into sport and socialising like my elder child, he was given loads of opportunities outside of tech and engaged with them all but was obviously very bored. He likes what he likes, computer programming, playing old computer games and watching videos about science.

That said neither of my boys had any interest in social media, influencers or teen/tween targeted youtubers. If that was the case I may have taken a different approach.

@BlackeyedSusan

ASD.

Try prevention.
Regular calming activities (most days)
Keep blood sugar up
Keep fluid intake up
Keep noise levels down.

Don't leave the DC's together. Your job to keep them separate and protect the little one. If your older one is getting wound up intervene with whatever calms him before it gets to level five. (mine goes on their phone)

He can learn to control meltdowns but that comes with age/development and the ability to recognise when they are getting agitated and take preventative steps themself. It will probably be a while yet and not perfect.

My teen is getting there.

Remember you need to parent differently with a ND kid.

(Violence still has consequences in that they are removed from the trigger)

Try praising any effort to control/prevent meltdowns (mine is learning to get a snack)

Do not talk or reason when in meltdown. He has gone into emotions only mode. A firm hug may help. Or foot/hand massage/ or food or a safe space under a desk say. You have to find his thing.

Good luck.

Great post thank you.

I think it is hard to give advice in this situation, as if he is NT then removing personal screens (eg tablets/phones) would likely be the answer as it can cause really bad behaviour and tantrums (unfortunately know this from experience!) and some kids are far more relaxed without those devices at all. But if he has additional needs and this isn't purely related to screen time, the advice would be totally different (some great advice above to do with PDA/self regulating with screens and timers etc).

If this behaviour is only ever linked to screen time, you could see if he is happier without screen time for a while. But the best thing to do I think is to proceed with the assessment so you can figure out why these meltdowns happen and structure your responses accordingly. As others mentioned, it probably would also be good to think of ways to stop ds 10 meltdowns being scary for ds 6. Some others mentioned using a quiet or safe space to direct ds 10 to when he is having a meltdown. That sounds sensible to me.

I hope you manage to get the support you need as this sounds like a difficult situation to figure out.

CAMHS in my LA won’t even accept a referral for assessment of ASD of a child demonstrating such behaviours at home until the parent has completed Triple P.

Oh well, it all helps to slow down referrals and stop the system getting overwhelmed. And "Triple P didn't help much" would be another indication that there's something worth investigating.

To be fair you can probably adapt Triple P. I did mix'n'match with DS - some Explosive Child, some ASC (post diagnosis), some mainstream, and an "Incredible Years" at our children's hospital. Mainstream just didn't touch the sides on his most challenging behaviour. After referral but while DS was waiting for NHS assessment the GP pointed me at a mainstream parenting group (can't remember if it was Triple P or some other validated programme) and the leader encouraged me to use the Explosive Child strategies I'd already picked up as well.

This sounds similar to my child but he is younger so no hormones in the mix. He has autism.
I would suggest working together on regulation skills. I’m not saying there shouldn’t be consequences but punishment won’t teach him how to manage his feelings. He needs help to do that. Look at things like
Making a safe place
Zones of regulation
Possible sensory calming ideas
Triggers and working together to help him manage these

What happens when he does this? What are the consequences? If he doesn’t do it at school then sounds like it’s lack of discipline/respect.