Does this sound normal behaviour for a ten year old?

[Missmummy88]

My son has always had big melts downs, think big toddler tantrums screaming shouting etc - then when he hit about 5-6 he would get angry and swipe things off sides push over chairs/laundry’s baskets. Now he is ten and he’s still being distrucyive but now very verbally abusive.

This happens most days.

Today he was angry with me because I told him his two hour tech was over (he has another hour at lunch). This is an arrangement he is aware of - I didn’t just rip tech away.

He then started rolling eyes, stomping about etc went upstairs where he’s 6 yo brother was playing Lego and with 2 minutes screaming and crying from my 6yo with a gash to the head where ten year old has thrown a book at him.

I tell him off & tell him he has now lost his lunch time hour. He loses it, starts telling me to fuck off you big fat idiot why do you hate everyone. Etc etc. From past experience I know this is escalating behaviour so I remove myself and 6yo to a safe space - he then let’s rip. Four boxes of Lego tipped everywhere - stuff thrown across the room and then he comes in with a piece of paper saying fuck off written on.

I ignore and when he leaves my room 6yo schrubches up and puts in bin.

Ten year old comes in demanding his paper screaming you fucking idiots multiple times.

He then walks around the house behind me about how awful a mum I am etc.

(I’m not awful just average - try my hardest like we all do!)

About one minute later he’s completely snapped out of it & is getting his shoes on to go to his friends house.

This is a common occurrence- meltdowns & verbal abuse.

He does get punished by removal of privileges like tech / no football cards etc. I just don’t do it while he’s melting as from experience he just gets worse so I wait until he’s calm to talk to him about it.

He has an asd assessment next week which I’ve paid for privately as school don’t see any of this behaviour.

I know this isn’t normal but does it sound like asd or does he just hate me?!

Teacher of 25 years and lotS of experience working with children with SEN. Not specifically commenting on OP.

All children, whatever their wiring, can behave badly. Really pisses me off when parents insist on attributing all unacceptable behaviour to conditions. SOMETIMES kids just need discipline and not have their parents claim “My dc was really deregulated when he stabbed his friend with a pencil.”

Please get him assessed for ADHD/ASD

My DD12 is sometimes like this at home and it's not a meltdown it's them not being in control. She has ADHD/ASD

I have a timer for her so she knows when she has to be finished in the bathroom for example, she's on medication school days.

Please get a referral for assessment, if you can afford to go private for that do it because the waiting times on the NHS are terrible.

He sounds like my son can be, he was diagnosed asd at 6. Mine was same/worse at school but it’s very common for school not to see. As others have said look up masking and also the coke bottle effect. Yvonne newbold Facebook page and webpage have some good tips for managing challenging and violent behaviour in Sen children. A lot of it is about reducing demands so the traditional things people are suggesting like removing privaledges etc won’t work, if they worked for him they would have worked by now and you wouldn’t be where you are

This sounds like my son who is younger but autistic with adhd. Mood flips very easily, very angry at loss of control.

He'd never write me a note tho hates writing!

It gets so much easier when you understand the difficulties and get advice from professionals. They've all been very helpful, even if he's not autistic youre in with the right team. Tell them about the violence towards your younger kid, I know its hard but it will keep support for you all in place that I know you need.

@7eleven

Teacher of 25 years and lotS of experience working with children with SEN. Not specifically commenting on OP.

All children, whatever their wiring, can behave badly. Really pisses me off when parents insist on attributing all unacceptable behaviour to conditions. SOMETIMES kids just need discipline and not have their parents claim “My dc was really deregulated when he stabbed his friend with a pencil.”

What part of the OPs story made you think her child was undisciplined

Christ, that sounds tough.
I don't think it's normal for a 10 year old to be that angry and destructive.
I know my DS5's behaviour can deteriorate if he has too much time on his switch. In your situation I'd be getting rid of the tech completely!

@7eleven

Teacher of 25 years and lotS of experience working with children with SEN. Not specifically commenting on OP.

All children, whatever their wiring, can behave badly. Really pisses me off when parents insist on attributing all unacceptable behaviour to conditions. SOMETIMES kids just need discipline and not have their parents claim “My dc was really deregulated when he stabbed his friend with a pencil.”

Yes but they need to learn techniques how to regulate themselves that is what’s going to help long term. If they can’t regulate no amount of punishment is going to magically enable them to be able to do something they can’t do. I agree it can’t just be used as an excuse and parents need to be doing something to try and improve things. Mine is in a specialist school now and they do a lot of work on emotional regulation, sensory etc, that is going to help him a lot more in life than the way his mainstream school dealt with things which actually made things worse

I have no answers OP, and I am sorry you are going through this. I also feel so very sorry for your 6 year old having to go through this. Its his home too and he should be able to live there without fear. How very sad for him. I wouldn't have let your son go to his friends after such an outburst , esp as you can't guarantee that he will not carry his anger over to his friends house. I think it's a bit dangerous.

@Missmummy88

This is something I really struggle with none of the parenting books help. I’m clueless. I dread the weekends but put up a brave face but it’s really breaking me

I’m not surprised OP.

It doesn’t sound normal. My dd does kick off but we ignore and it calms down quickly. It’ll be good or tiredness and she knows it’s unacceptable to act out in anger, although it’s ok to feel angry etc. it’s just about how to express it. We had long discussions about it when she’s calm. The same with ds.

There are certain behaviours which lead to a complete screen ban so she knows where the line is.

Umm maybe the same part where I said I wasn’t talking about the OP?

Our 11 year old is awaiting assesment but he wouldn't behave like that, especially not towards me.
I think you need to seek professional help ASAP. This kind of behaviour will continue to escalate if you don't find ways to manage it early.

This sounds exactly like my son - he's 7.

He's being assessed for ADHD. There's definitely something not right. He doesn't behave badly - he literally meltdowns and can't help it.

My daughter has never ever done this. Same upbringing exactly.

It's bloody hard work and it's even more hard work when people think it's due to bad parenting.

@7eleven

Teacher of 25 years and lotS of experience working with children with SEN. Not specifically commenting on OP.

All children, whatever their wiring, can behave badly. Really pisses me off when parents insist on attributing all unacceptable behaviour to conditions. SOMETIMES kids just need discipline and not have their parents claim “My dc was really deregulated when he stabbed his friend with a pencil.”

As a fellow teacher, really pisses me off that some teachers in our educational system clearly have zero understanding of SEND.

Did you even READ the post?

This isn't bad behaviour. This is behaviour directly caused by how they are wired.

@Chely

Our 11 year old is awaiting assesment but he wouldn't behave like that, especially not towards me. I think you need to seek professional help ASAP. This kind of behaviour will continue to escalate if you don't find ways to manage it early.

And here we go with the perfect parents who somehow thing that the fact 'their' child wouldn't do that, makes them a better parent.

OP - ignore.

Am I the only parent of dc with ASD that doesn’t see this kind of behaviour? My dc wouldn’t dare swear at me or throw things around the house. I have to say I’m pretty relaxed with tech time, I do pick my battles but my dc rarely push boundaries.

Some kids can swear and shout without have ASD or ADHD, the same as not all kids with ASD/ADHD are naughty and having ASD/ADHD is no excuse to behave this way.

@CoastalWave did you even read the part where I stated I wasn’t talking about the OP

@Lovemusic33

Am I the only parent of dc with ASD that doesn’t see this kind of behaviour? My dc wouldn’t dare swear at me or throw things around the house. I have to say I’m pretty relaxed with tech time, I do pick my battles but my dc rarely push boundaries.

Some kids can swear and shout without have ASD or ADHD, the same as not all kids with ASD/ADHD are naughty and having ASD/ADHD is no excuse to behave this way.

I am 100% confident your child will have behaviours mine would never do either.

Everyone's circumstances, boundaries, peer groups, family support networks etc are different, not just their parenting styles.

We are all managing as best we can, is there any need to write what could be considered a very smug post on someone's thread who is clearly struggling and asking for help?

Impulse control can differ depending on the impulses. Explosive behaviour can change depending on sensory needs. Verbal aggression can be common if thats what you see and hear at school etc.

As a person with asd and adhd my only advice is to try and stop the meltdown before it happens. Punishing him after is pointless, it's like punishing him for breathing , he really can't help it.
Finding his triggers will be key here, talking about how to help him in the meltdown if its unavoidable. Discovering if he is sensory seeking or avoiding will also help you to figure out what he needs. So people with asd who need sensory input to calm down might liked to be hugged while melting Down while a person with avoidance needs space , a calm place to wait until the feelings pass. Things like ear defenders and weighted blankets can help.

I would put all his tech stuff in the bin.

@emsmar

If the school don't see it - it's definitely a home problem.

What kind of thing is that to say? A lot of kids mask at school

If he has ASD then deep pressure activities might help him regulate. I used to have to physically squash DS. Now at 17 he carries a stress ball and squeezes that hard if he feels he is beginning to get stressed. Also assuming it is ASD punishing him won't make him not able to melt down. When he's calm can he tell you what the triggers were? So for example if it's sudden change you could give plenty of notice of what is happening and how. Could also be that he is finding school very stressful.
Tools like Zones of Regulation can help kids with recognising when they're about to blow.

If ADHD, medication can potentially really help with regulation too. It would be best to specifically ask for referral for dual diagnosis based on the dysregulation + executive dysfunction as often only one condition will be referred for and then you've got to go back in the queue for the second, whereas they can be diagnosed in the same single process.

My dd was naughty coming off iPad so I removed it. A couple of times I took it away for a week and then after a gentle chat and warning for 6 months. She has been wonderful without it.

Reading your OP again what you could try next time is a timer he can see for his tech time, with lots of notice that it is going to end, followed by a deep pressure activity, like isometric exercises. Try a weighted blanket for him. In my own kids and those I work with I would generally expect issues with sudden change (if adhd there's time blindness so knowing he has two hours will mean nothing) and overstimulation.

Loss of the next thing he was expecting may have exacerbated it too.

That is in no way a criticism - before DS was diagnosed (asd/adhd) he was overstimulated and had a huge violent meltdown which led to me not giving him the cake he was expecting. Meltdown got worse and more violent. I should have addressed the first meltdown with deep pressure, then carried on the day as normal. What would happen if, when he started to lose control, you held him and squashed him in a really tight hug while repeating something calmly (its ok, its ok, will this matter in five years or similar) if he's screaming? That used to really work for ds, you'd literally feel the tension drain out of him in a few minutes. I had to do that once when picking him up from a holiday club. Another child had broken his lego creation and he had melted down to the point they had to remove him to a separate room so he didn't hurt people. I went up to him, squashed him, he was screaming about the lego and thrashing and I just kept looking into the far corner and repeating in a monotone 'will it matter in five years' while squeezing. Then suddenly, all his emotions dissipated and he said 'no' and all was well. Holiday club staff were all 'how did you DO that' like I was a magician. It is worth a try...

Oh and ask school, what is he like socially. How does he play. Most of the kids I know with ASD and ADHD mask like troopers at school - the idea that ADHD presents the same in all settings is rubbish- but you'll see the executive dysfunction in the latter and the social dysfunction/rigidity of thinking in the former. You'll also see the sensory need. He will likely be struggling to some degree at school, but there seems to be such a rigid interpretation of how neurodiversity presents, among some school staff so the slightly atypical presentations get missed. I currently teach a kid who wasn't diagnosed til 16, which has had an awful impact on his education.

This sounds way more than "naughty" though Orlando, and at an age where most children no longer exhibit behaviours like this.
It is completely dysregulated. A NT child would learn after a few removals of privileges that it wasn't worth the behaviour. A ND child can't help it and no amount of punishment will address it. They need help learning the tools with which to regulate their behaviour. OP doesn't mention that her younger child exhibits this which suggests it's not necessarily down to parenting - although even if he is diagnosed ND she will be told by many professionals that it's her parenting before they accept his level of need, ime.

@emsmar

If the school don't see it - it's definitely a home problem.

Such a common misconception, even among many teachers. Quite depressing really! I'm all too familiar with the scenario OP has described. School would hear none of it, put it down to parenting. I pursued the long, lengthy process with Camhs for assessment regardless, and from the first meeting they said the behaviours all pointed towards ASD. DD did get an ASD diagnosis. Just excellent at masking at school!