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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To say post natal depression is limited to women?

314 replies

user7643789 · 11/02/2022 14:47

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-60319568

I do believe men can experience depression at any stage in life but as they cannot give birth they don't experience the hormonal and physical response.

OP posts:
Candleabra · 11/02/2022 17:50

I imagine most men who suffer from so called post natal depression have just realised that they no longer have someone running around after them.

borntobequiet · 11/02/2022 17:51

YANBU

Somethingsnappy · 11/02/2022 17:51

@bubblesbubbles11, interestingly, I have come across research that suggests men do go through some hormonal changes both throughout their partners pregnancy and after the birth of the baby too! I'm also unable to link just now though Wink, as I can't remember the sources and don't have enough time to go looking. But if people are interested, it's definitely worth investigating!

AutomaticMoon · 11/02/2022 17:53

@Ohsugarhoneyicetea

Of course men cannot experience post natal depression. It is specifically related to the changes (hormone, thyroid and immune system fluctuations and dysregulation) your body undergo through gestation, birth and lactation. All things men cannot do. New parent depression, for sure, both and men and women experience that.
Cannot believe we’re even debating this!
Somethingsnappy · 11/02/2022 17:54

@AutomaticMoon

PND in women can and does end up in psychosis and infanticide...
Yep. Or even without the psychosis if the PND is severe enough. Rarely, of course.
loveyours · 11/02/2022 17:55

@peachgreen

I think unless you've experienced the intensity of PND it's hard to understand why this situation is so emotive for women. IMO, both men and women can experience reactive depression after the birth of a baby, and it can be incredibly hard - but only the person who has given birth can experience the kind of depression that can be triggered by the physical and hormonal changes you get after you have a baby. It feels completely different to reactive depression (I've had both), and the treatment is, by necessity, different, and as such it needs a different term.

We don't need to gatekeep depression for women, saying they have it worse. The severity varies between individual women too so..

user1471517095 · 11/02/2022 17:56

Both me and my husband suffered postnatal depression after our longed for daughter was stillborn. I should have told him to snap out of it then? He didn't give birth, he was just moping about lifestyle changes...

TerryChoc · 11/02/2022 17:56

I’m so sorry I have not read any of the thread I was just hoping to vote which wasn’t enabled.

But, live with a beautiful and wonderful father man who 130% had postnatal depression and then please come back to this.
Not read and won’t thanks guys.

loveyours · 11/02/2022 17:58

We all know men can't give birth, they are referring to depression associated in the first few months. I think the actual topic at hand is more noteworthy than how they describe it but there you go

loveyours · 11/02/2022 18:01

@HopeYourHighHorseBucks

Are you saying a woman with depression is more important than a man with depression? Who gives a toss what it's called or caused by, depression is depression and should be treated as so

Absolutely yes.

This isn't even feminism, this is just ridiculous and offensive on behalf of all men who have killed themselves, including one close to me. Good to know it's less important because they have the wrong genitalsConfused

thepeopleversuswork · 11/02/2022 18:01

I’m a bit dubious myself.

a) men don’t go through the physical or hormonal triggers of PND. Yes they may suffer from sleep deprivation but that’s not exclusively a condition linked to childbearing and rearing.

b) I know there’s a physical/hormone dimension to PND but I have always suspected it is in many cases triggered by the utter domestic uselessness of a lot of men. I can’t believe enough of them are doing enough domestic work to trigger this kind of trauma.

ClumpingBambooIsALie · 11/02/2022 18:02

@TerryChoc

I’m so sorry I have not read any of the thread I was just hoping to vote which wasn’t enabled.

But, live with a beautiful and wonderful father man who 130% had postnatal depression and then please come back to this.
Not read and won’t thanks guys.

Men get a drop in testosterone when their partner has a baby so there might be a hormonal component to new dad situational depression. But I don't care how many imaginary percentage points you wave around, unless your husband squeezed a baby out through his cock it's not PND.

I'm not saying that if it's not PND it's not as serious — I've had depression so severe I couldn't physically move, even though I've never had a baby. Why do you think you have to validate your husband's depression by calling it PND?

Ionlydomassiveones · 11/02/2022 18:09

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn at the poster's request.

Dutch1e · 11/02/2022 18:12

@Lockedoorsopen

I seen a page on facebook explode last night because of this topic.

MIND (UK leading charity in mental health) states

Doctors can only formally diagnose you with a perinatal mental health problem if you are pregnant or have given birth to a child in the past year

But if your partner is pregnant or recently gave birth, you may also experience mental health problems during this time. For example, some studies show that partners can experience depression or anxiety around the time of their child's birth

Now I know males mental health is real - especially after the birth of a child but it should be conflated just because it happens around the birth of a baby.

Women already struggle to admit and talk about PND. Its hounded women since time began. Women were routinely put in asylums, locked away, called looney, hysterical, mental, unloving, unnatural because they were suffering PND. Its very fucking hard to tell some one you don't love your brand new, pink and gorgeous smelling baby because you are unwell. The stigma for women around PND is still very real.

The services women have set up for this is dreadful. Once you get to the end of a very long waiting list, you might get offered a text counselling session with a councillor on line.

Which is fucking incredible actually because these women are seriously unwell and it can have life long effects for the new babys development.

Yet now men have PND too - well this new. Are we now going to have to share these already shite services with men too - how far down the list will that take women?

The NHS website doesnt even suggest childbirth is a trigger for PND. Not sure which melon thought they would forget to add that trigger. You know as PND comes after having a baby

The strain the female body goes under in labour is traumatic to the body and also the mental health of the mother. A massive drop in two vital hormones which can take SIX months to get back to normal levels. 1in 4 women develop anaemia through rapid blood loss in birth. Add in birth trauma or the mum being treated like shite by the midwives and doctors.

The body and the mind is exhausted physically and mentally because of pregnancy and child birth. This is PND

Men do not suffer PND, they suffer adjustment disorder, depression, anxiety, PTSD. it just so it happens at the same time a new baby has come along - but that doesnt mean its PND

We need to be really really careful about making PND inclusive of men because it waters down the shit services women already receive. It diminishes the traumatic event that some women labours are - events that women still get told to stop shouting' or "just get on with it", still laughed at ( The new TV program 'This is gonna hurt')

So no, im not going to sit up and take notice because all these men are now suddenly appearing with PND, I mean when was the last time women were talked about on the News about PND?

This thread highlights the internalised misogyny that so many women have towards themselves.

Yes we can claim PND as women only and triggered by giving birth and we should be demanding better services to help women with PND.

Yet we can also agree that men and partners can suffer depression around the time of the birth.

We are not in the same boat and it needs addressing separately.

Quoting because this is bloody brilliant. Everyone, read it twice.
WonderfulYou · 11/02/2022 18:14

I think unless you've experienced the intensity of PND it's hard to understand why this situation is so emotive for women. IMO, both men and women can experience reactive depression after the birth of a baby, and it can be incredibly hard - but only the person who has given birth can experience the kind of depression that can be triggered by the physical and hormonal changes you get after you have a baby. It feels completely different to reactive depression (I've had both), and the treatment is, by necessity, different, and as such it needs a different term.

Absolutely this!!

Men can of course get depression after birth but it’s not the same as PND it would be the same if you used a surrogate or adopted a baby - you can get depression from the impact of having a new child but it’s not due to the massive hormonal changes that occur during pregnancy, birth and BF.

PND is such a taboo subject as it is and comparing it to regular depression that anyone can get at any time is going to make new mums feel even more shit as it’s meant to be the happiest time of their lives etc and it takes away the massive impact that having a baby has mentally and physically.

AutomaticMoon · 11/02/2022 18:15

F me!

“ The Edinburgh Postnatal Depression Scale (EPDS) assesses postnatal depression and anxiety in men and women. Because men might be less expressive about their feelings and thus underreport symptoms, the scale uses a lower cutoff score for men.23”

So they have a higher threshold for diagnosis of PPD in women than men?! And men can have post partum even though they weren’t the ones with the gestation in the first place???

Wow.

I’ve seen plenty of questionable science but this takes the biscuit. There’s not accepted definition of PPD in the DSM? Not surprised as the DSM is a farce anyhow. How about ‘after their body parts with the baby’s body’?!?! It seems extremely self explanatory.

WonderfulYou · 11/02/2022 18:17

I am very for support for men who have depression.
Huge numbers of men suffer with MH issues and they have a much higher suicide/self harm rate which needs to be changed.

However I think PND should be for those who have given birth.
Dads, adoptive parents etc should just have the term depression.

AutomaticMoon · 11/02/2022 18:17

@Lockedoorsopen Read the above, it’s from a medical journal. Academia is also trying to normalise and destigmatise pedophilia so don’t know why I’m surprised by this.

Mamette · 11/02/2022 18:19

I got absolutely battered on a thread about 3 or 4 years ago on this topic.

have not done any searches but i would be surprised if there are not academic studies out there which show that men go through hormonal changes whilst their wife is pregnant, when she gives birth and after the baby is born.

Sorry but this is just hilarious 😂

AutomaticMoon · 11/02/2022 18:20

@Lockedoorsopen The quote is from here, btw.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6659987/

Mamette · 11/02/2022 18:22

I should clarify that no, I do not believe that men can experience PND and I never will believe it, regardless of “studies”, imaginary or otherwise.

strawberrrycheeesecake · 11/02/2022 18:24

PND refers to the period after a woman gives birth - postnatal. So no a man can't suffer from that.

A man can of course suffer depression as a result of life style changes, but not specifically post natal.

FloBot7 · 11/02/2022 18:26

@WonderfulYou

I am very for support for men who have depression. Huge numbers of men suffer with MH issues and they have a much higher suicide/self harm rate which needs to be changed.

However I think PND should be for those who have given birth.
Dads, adoptive parents etc should just have the term depression.

Adoptive parents do use the term PAD or post adoption depression.
Somethingsnappy · 11/02/2022 18:28

@user1471517095

Both me and my husband suffered postnatal depression after our longed for daughter was stillborn. I should have told him to snap out of it then? He didn't give birth, he was just moping about lifestyle changes...
Grief after the death of a baby or child is in another league to PND, so different perhaps to this debate.

I'm so so sorry for your loss.

littlejalapeno · 11/02/2022 18:29

Yanbu. This has given me the rage.