To say post natal depression is limited to women?

[user7643789]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-60319568

I do believe men can experience depression at any stage in life but as they cannot give birth they don't experience the hormonal and physical response.

I completely agree with everything your gynaecologist said @peaceanddove

I think anyone using the term PND to describe what men may experience after the birth of their child is a) applying lazy logic and b) taking away from women’s experience.

Men can go through depression but it isn’t PND.

We don't need to gatekeep depression for women, saying they have it worse. The severity varies between individual women too so..

No one is "gatekeeping depression for women". This is a specific form of depression that only women who have given birth can have. It doesn't mean men or women who haven't given birth can't experience depression, even worse depression, or less severe depression after any life altering event, such as the birth of their child.

There's a lot of point missing on this thread.

Mind you, with the way society works it might get taken a bit more seriously if men complained about it too.

For men, it would. Not for women.

@EmpressCixi

Well, what else do you call it when a man comes down with depression due to the birth or stillbirth of his child? Just plain old depression? If so, then why isn’t it also plain old depression when a woman comes down with depression due to the birth or stillbirth of her child?

It seems to me that if we have a special name for depression caused by the birth or stillbirth of a parent’s child, we should use it equally for mothers and fathers. Or we just drop the “post natal” and it’s all plain old depression which can be caused by suicide, death, job loss, relationship breakup, financial issues, nothing, terminal illness, life changing injury, head injury, etc etc etc.

I would call it sulking in the guise of depression, that they are no longer number 1 in the life and priorities of their partner.

Women get post natal depression that can lead to post partum psychosis. It’s a very real, femal specific type of depression and opening that to men is not helpful to me or to women.

In my experience A lot of men get the jealous ‘she doesn’t want to fuck me/is to tired to give me attention’-itis

Some decent men don’t cope very well with the complete life upheaval and dynamic change and seek the right kind of help but don’t try to claim it’s post natal depression.

The rest just work more and ignore the problem leaving the mother to deal with the whole upheaval whilst they try to keep everything the same.

@peaceanddove

A few years ago, I saw a consultant gynaecologist because the peri menopause triggered awful hormonal depression, overnight. He said he wasn't surprised that this had happened because I'd also suffered with awful PND after DD1 was born.

He told me that classic PND is caused by the massive hormonal changes after giving birth, which can trigger a dangerous reaction in those women severely intolerant to fluctuations in progesterone. In it's most severe form it causes post partum psychosis which requires the new Mum to be hospitalised.

So, though I do think new father's can feel depressed I think it's caused by the huge change in circumstances, and isn't hormonally induced.

It can be hormonal. Reduced testosterone following the birth of a baby can and does effect men. It's been studied for many years.

Also
It maybe could be called something different for men but I'm not understanding why some think Postnatal is a word that just relates to Women.
It literally means After Birth. The definition = relating to the period after birth. It doesn't attach female anywhere.
I find it strange that some don't bother going off and doing some actual research instead of spouting shite.
Christ even the usually rubbish NHS website acknowledges it's a recognised illness in men and dispels some myths that are being stated here.

Men can't get PND imo. Anything postnatal or antenatal etc is women only in my eyes and I think it's really important it stays this way.

I would call it sulking in the guise of depression, that they are no longer number 1 in the life and priorities of their partner.

That’s a disgusting thing to say and why women with PND are dismissed because they’re said to be ‘just tired’ etc.

Depression is very real regardless of whether it’s a women dealing with PND or normal depression or a man dealing with depression.

It literally means After Birth. The definition = relating to the period after birth. It doesn't attach female anywhere.
I find it strange that some don't bother going off and doing some actual research instead of spouting shite.

After birth intended to mean after giving birth. Or should we start including men in pre natal care too? Honestly, give over.

I don’t know why people think saying men can’t get post natal depression means that depression suffered by men is invalid.

What next? Men can get PMS if they’re upset or stressed about their wives being on their period??

I genuinely don't get why people are so bloody desperate to call it PND in men. What's the point? How does anyone benefit from saying new dads with depression have PND? Does it help determine prognosis? Guide treatment? No. It can't, because all the decades of research and data out there on PND are on people with female physiology who have just gone through the enormous hormonal, physiological, anatomical, psychological, and social turmoil of giving birth, and whose bodies, brains, and lifestyles are now deeply impacted by those circumstances.

What the hell use is it to apply all those years of research and expertise and data to someone whose condition is profoundly different? There are similarities and parallels, yeah, like the whole "brand new human you're totally responsible for keeping alive" thing and everything that goes with that, but FFS. It's of no use to apply a label to a whole new group in a superficially similar circumstances but who are in other ways very different.

I'd back a specific diagnosis and specific research for people in this circumstance, and for any applicable lessons from treatment of PND to be carried over, but men can't appropriate PND. It doesn't help us and it doesn't help them either.

This isn't even feminism, this is just ridiculous and offensive on behalf of all men who have killed themselves, including one close to me. Good to know it's less important because they have the wrong genitals

At no point did I mention genitals define seriousness of depression. The topic is about PND in which I think women suffer as a direct result of giving birth, hormonal changes etc so yes I think when it comes to PND women should be priority, as they directly suffer it. What is offensive is the lack of support women are given, too shamed to reach out in fear of being seen as a bad parent.

What you failed to quote is where I said depression in men is real and should absolutely treated but we are talking about PND so I think it should refer to solely to the mother.

I have had 3 relatives die by suicide, none related to PND. My comment is not offensive at all.

@FloBot7

*It literally means After Birth. The definition = relating to the period after birth. It doesn't attach female anywhere. I find it strange that some don't bother going off and doing some actual research instead of spouting shite.*

After birth intended to mean after giving birth. Or should we start including men in pre natal care too? Honestly, give over.

Give over what? Why would they be involved in pre- natal care, they aren't the ones pregnant so would be pretty pointless really. Postnatal depression is a name for a diagnosis - depression that comes after a birth.
I'll happily stand up and fight for many things that should only be for Women (single sex spaces and the attempted destruction of female privacy, female only prisons, maintaining our right to be called women/female to name a few ) but stuff like this is ridiculous imo It's just a name - it doesn't take away that a woman has obviously given birth nor the severity of PND but people can't just decide that it does not and can not exist because they said so or because the menz are lying arseholes. FFS only on MN!

Of course it only relates to women as only women can give birth. Our bodies have down through a huge amount of pressure and out hormones are all over the place. Also our bodies will react to our babies needs (not always but designed to)

Men do not have any of this

The depression men may have is depression the reasons being maybe the stress of become a father, lack of sleep, worry etc their bodies have not been through anything and neither are their hormones all over the place

People don't get post concussion syndrome after their partner has a concussion. I don't understand why people are acting like "oh it's right there in the name, POST NATAL, it's after the birth of the baby and men are experiencing depression after their baby was born so it's the same thing". Post natal depression clearly refers to the depression you experience after having given birth yourself. Why would a medical diagnosis refer to someone else's postpartum state? It's illogical. In the same way, grandparents and siblings can experience post natal depression then. But no, of course not, you would recognise that as depression in its own right not PND!

@Somethingsnappy Yes, I dunno why people discount the severity of this. Of course not everyone gets it the same but I think people are just desensitised to the concept of ‘depression’

I guess it might be some kind of defence mechanism to protect their minds from the utterly overwhelming and all encompassing abyss it can be.

@cuno

People don't get post concussion syndrome after their partner has a concussion. I don't understand why people are acting like "oh it's right there in the name, POST NATAL, it's after the birth of the baby and men are experiencing depression after their baby was born so it's the same thing". Post natal depression clearly refers to the depression you experience after having given birth yourself. Why would a medical diagnosis refer to someone else's postpartum state? It's illogical. In the same way, grandparents and siblings can experience post natal depression then. But no, of course not, you would recognise that as depression in its own right not PND!

Thank you for explaining this so well! My brain got scrambled every time I tried to understand this argument and was at a complete loss for words.

Words are very important

It’s important to distinguish what is happening so they can get the right support

For women it could be around breast feeding, her body healing along with exhaustion and worry

For men it’s different they can’t breast feed, their bodies are not in tune with their baby and their bodies do not need to heal

I have Tokophobia and can’t have a baby, if by some miracle I managed to not take my life and see a pregnancy through, and then my whole pelvic area was messed up for life and even more painful than now, and my DP was claiming PPD and requiring support, which for women and babies is already thin on the ground.... I would be extremely fucked off. Their body is not creating a small human over almost a year, they might have hormonal changes but to call it PDD is extremely offensive.

Scientists are just trolling lately.

@OhWhyNot

Words are very important

It’s important to distinguish what is happening so they can get the right support

For women it could be around breast feeding, her body healing along with exhaustion and worry

For men it’s different they can’t breast feed, their bodies are not in tune with their baby and their bodies do not need to heal

Yes, exactly. Are women actually arguing on behalf of the poor menz on this topic? I find it so hard to believe.

@ClumpingBambooIsALie

I genuinely don't get why people are so bloody desperate to call it PND in men. What's the point? How does anyone benefit from saying new dads with depression have PND? Does it help determine prognosis? Guide treatment? No. It can't, because all the decades of research and data out there on PND are on people with female physiology who have just gone through the enormous hormonal, physiological, anatomical, psychological, and social turmoil of giving birth, and whose bodies, brains, and lifestyles are now deeply impacted by those circumstances.

What the hell use is it to apply all those years of research and expertise and data to someone whose condition is profoundly different? There are similarities and parallels, yeah, like the whole "brand new human you're totally responsible for keeping alive" thing and everything that goes with that, but FFS. It's of no use to apply a label to a whole new group in a superficially similar circumstances but who are in other ways very different.

I'd back a specific diagnosis and specific research for people in this circumstance, and for any applicable lessons from treatment of PND to be carried over, but men can't appropriate PND. It doesn't help us and it doesn't help them either.

I posted a link up thread to a study, but academia is just trolling lately, campaigning for pedocriminals and men to have PPD. Apparently because there’s no accepted definition in DSM OF PPD, they can just include men. And they mentioned ONE study that found hormone changes in men and on the back of this, they are rewriting science.

@FloBot7

Sadly, in my very short lived career in clinical negligence I dealt with two cases of women who died from PND. They were both healthy women in their 30s with no history of mental illness prior to birth. One jumped from a multi story car park, the other jumped in front of a train. It's a very serious illness that requires it's own research and it's own clinical guidelines. Lumping it in with men will dilute that research to the detriment of women.

This tallies with a lot of the reading and research I did into PND after I was diagnosed with it. Around the same time, a friend of a friend commited suicide just a few months after her baby was born. It made the local papers because she was a GP, specialising in women's health, with zero history of mental illness. Such a tragedy.

My gynaecologist told me that the average age for a woman to commit suicide is between the ages of 48 - 52. And he was certain it was because they were the victims of the awful depression that can be triggered by the hormonal fluctuations during the peri menopause.

It’s not just about the woman though, her health and the baby’s are intertwined. Even if you just think of women as incubators, maternal health is important.