To say post natal depression is limited to women?

[user7643789]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-60319568

I do believe men can experience depression at any stage in life but as they cannot give birth they don't experience the hormonal and physical response.

This is the same offensive lineshifting crap we see with other categories, isn't it? "If you say men can't get PND cause they haven't had a baby, you're saying women whose babies died can't have PND, because neither of them have a baby!!!!"

No, women suffering the grief of a stillbirth on top of PND are not any kind of evidence that men can get PND. True, both are depressed, and neither of them currently have a baby they birthed themselves. But they're completely unrelated otherwise.

This is the same offensive lineshifting crap we see with other categories, isn't it? "If you say men can't get PND cause they haven't had a baby, you're saying women whose babies died can't have PND, because neither of them have a baby!!!!"

Yes, it is the same logic.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

And "numerous professionals in the field" write all sorts of reality denying nonsense which decentres female bodies and experiences.

No one is saying anything that “decentres female bodies and experiences” as we all agree that PND affects women. The issue is the obstinate denial of men’s bodies and experiences by women claiming that men cannot also experience PND when the scientific evidence is blatantly there that they can and do also experience PND.

No it isn't because it's a category error. The drive for this is coming from the decentring of female experiences across the board. This is a women's health issue.

Men can't give birth. Men may have depression after their partner has given birth. It is good that studies are looking at that. But they are not postnatal, because they haven't actually given birth, and there needs to be a term for the kind of depression that occurs after a woman has given birth.

Nobody has the right to define how someone else sees their suffering. You might not think a man can suffer from something, but for the man who believes he is suffering from it, putting a name on it might help him come to terms with it, understand it and get help for it.

I find the idea that some women are possessive over who gets post natal depression bizarre, it's not something that anyone actually wants to have, surely?

Compare it to the scenario of a woman who tells you she's just been raped. Would you tell her that the person who did it is innocent until proven guilty, therefore he's currently innocent because he hasn't been charged yet. If he's innocent, she cannot have been raped by him (in practical terms, if he is innocent of raping her then she hasn't been raped by him).

Of course you wouldn't, you'd offer her support and get her help. Denying her claim is true would mean calling her a liar. She believes she has been raped, and the support she gets will be based on that assumption.

@ClumpingBambooIsALie

This is the same offensive lineshifting crap we see with other categories, isn't it? "If you say men can't get PND cause they haven't had a baby, you're saying women whose babies died can't have PND, because neither of them have a baby!!!!"

No, women suffering the grief of a stillbirth on top of PND are not any kind of evidence that men can get PND. True, both are depressed, and neither of them currently have a baby they birthed themselves. But they're completely unrelated otherwise.

You’re mis-characterising the discussion completely and building a strawman. The fact you can develop PND following a stillbirth was never presented by me as “evidence” that men can get PND too. I merely stated from the start birth/stillbirth when posting about PND because these are the primary trigger events for PND.

The evidence as to why men can suffer from and can be diagnosed with PND is detailed in the scientific study I posted which also has in its reference list a few dozen additional scientific studies focussed on PND in men. If you took the time to read any of these studies, you wouldn’t be making up such a silly argument. PND in men isn’t theoretical, it’s fact.

Because it's a term women need. Men, and everyone else, get depression for reasons. Look at that, by all means. It's very important that there is a term for what is an exclusively women's health issue.

I think some posters on here are missing the point completely. I'm not engaging with anyone who doesn't grasp how important it is for this specific health condition in WOMEN ONLY to have a name and be differentiated from other situational depression that men, adoptive parents, family members might have.

Men really have to take everything from women don’t they. They can have depression after the birth of their child. PND is a specific to women who have given birth!!!!!! How many women is this going to stop getting help. This is dangerous.

You're the one who threw the straw man into the ring by going on about women whose babies have died, Cixi. You spent a great deal of time talking about this group of people whose experiences are irrelevant to the question of whether people, especially male people, who haven't given birth can have PND. If my conjecture as to why you chose to spend so much time talking about women whose babies have died is wrong, then feel free to tell us the real reason you brought them up. Either you're too stupid to understand that women whose babies died are still postpartum, or you had some other motive.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

No it isn't because it's a category error. The drive for this is coming from the decentring of female experiences across the board. This is a women's health issue.

Men can't give birth. Men may have depression after their partner has given birth. It is good that studies are looking at that. But they are not postnatal, because they haven't actually given birth, and there needs to be a term for the kind of depression that occurs after a woman has given birth.

“Post natal” literally means “post birth”(of a baby). Just like “post traumatic” means “post trauma”

You are getting confused about language. There is nothing in Post Natal Depression as a diagnosed condition that requires the sufferer to have actually given birth at the birth event in question.

From NHS
www.nhs.uk/mental-health/conditions/post-natal-depression/overview/
“Postnatal depression is a type of depression that many parents experience after having a baby. It's a common problem, affecting more than 1 in every 10 women within a year of giving birth. It can also affect fathers and partners.”

And here we have from the same NHS page a list of the MYTHS which persist on this thread:

“Postnatal depression is often misunderstood and there are many myths surrounding it.

These include:

-postnatal depression is less severe than other types of depression – in fact, it's as serious as other types of depression

-postnatal depression is entirely caused by hormonal changes – it's actually caused by many different factors

-postnatal depression will soon pass – unlike the "baby blues", postnatal depression can persist for months if left untreated and in a minority of cases it can become a long-term problem.

-postnatal depression only affects women – research has actually found that up to 1 in 10 new fathers become depressed after having a baby

-These factors are equally true of antenatal depression.

@ClumpingBambooIsALie

You're the one who threw the straw man into the ring by going on about women whose babies have died, Cixi. You spent a great deal of time talking about this group of people whose experiences are irrelevant to the question of whether people, especially male people, who haven't given birth can have PND. If my conjecture as to why you chose to spend so much time talking about women whose babies have died is wrong, then feel free to tell us the real reason you brought them up. Either you're too stupid to understand that women whose babies died are still postpartum, or you had some other motive.

No I did not. I only did 1 post in response to a poster who stated OND had nothing to do with stillbirth, which I corrected by stating the facts, that experiencing stillbirth increases risk of PND 7 fold.

Whatever. You're the one who thinks men can get PND, so… 🤣

@Jedsnewstar

Men really have to take everything from women don’t they. They can have depression after the birth of their child. PND is a specific to women who have given birth!!!!!! How many women is this going to stop getting help. This is dangerous.

Don’t be ridiculous. Increasing awareness means more help, not less.

@ClumpingBambooIsALie

Whatever. You're the one who thinks men can get PND, so… 🤣

You can laugh all you want in your alternate fantasy world, because back here in the real world it’s myself, the entire NHS, and the internationally followed ICD and DSM diagnostic criteria that all most medical professionals worldwide have written and use that also agrees that men can get and are diagnosed with PND.

So what? Doesn't stop it being laughable.

As I said, loads of pandering shit gets written by "medical professionals" and especially the NHS who are scared to use the word "woman", or say that sex is a factor in anything at all.

@ClumpingBambooIsALie

So what? Doesn't stop it being laughable.

Ok, so the NHS’ medical expertise is “laughable”, ok, then. All those medical professionals know less than the Delphic wisdom of “mums”

I expect you’re a free-birther too then?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I think some posters on here are missing the point completely. I'm not engaging with anyone who doesn't grasp how important it is for this specific health condition in WOMEN ONLY to have a name and be differentiated from other situational depression that men, adoptive parents, family members might have.

Hear, hear.

Is that what passes for an insult on AIBU these days?

PND is different from depression. It's a specific term. And only women give birth. Obviously.

I expect you’re a free-birther too then?

wtf?

The drive for this is coming from the decentring of female experiences across the board. This is a women's health issue.

Men can't give birth. Men may have depression after their partner has given birth. It is good that studies are looking at that. But they are not postnatal, because they haven't actually given birth, and there needs to be a term for the kind of depression that occurs after a woman has given birth.

The end.

Can someone explain to me how it helps men who are suffering depression after the birth of a baby, to be lumped in with women suffering depression after the physiological event of giving birth themselves?

BTW nothing against the "Delphic wisdom of mums" (nice of you to denigrate the value of women's experience that way), but I'm not approaching this from the perspective you think I'm approaching it from. I've never been, and have no intention of ever being, a mum, so have no vested interest in any supposed wisdom of mumness. I just believe that what we call things matters, and that women matter.