To say post natal depression is limited to women?

[user7643789]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-60319568

I do believe men can experience depression at any stage in life but as they cannot give birth they don't experience the hormonal and physical response.

@yellowtwo

Your comments are interesting Sleeping, "His partner moans" "He isn't allowed out", you place blame on the Mother.

I'm not blaming his mother or his partner, I'm merely positing different reasons he might not be going out And there def men who would absolutely be out the house like a shot if his partner said yes dear go and didn't moan at him going out again. Some of those will be justified moans and some won't. Just like some of the "pathetic sad men who don't want to grow up" will be men with genuine mental health concerns who have become isolated, underwent their own trauma at their child's birth, feel overwhelmed and sleepdeprived with the pressure of not letting the helpless baby die etc.

@peachgreen

I think unless you've experienced the intensity of PND it's hard to understand why this situation is so emotive for women. IMO, both men and women can experience reactive depression after the birth of a baby, and it can be incredibly hard - but only the person who has given birth can experience the kind of depression that can be triggered by the physical and hormonal changes you get after you have a baby. It feels completely different to reactive depression (I've had both), and the treatment is, by necessity, different, and as such it needs a different term.

This ^

@peachgreen

They’re both reactive depression. After all PND “triggered by the physical and hormonal changes you get after you have a baby” is still depression in reaction to physical and hormonal changes. Just because it’s not exactly the same, doesn’t mean it shouldn’t have the same diagnosis.

It’s that way with all types of depression....it’s not exactly the same in a man vs a woman or even triggered by/reacting to the same things, but the symptoms are alike enough to be called by same diagnosis. After all a diagnosis of depression is assessed not by looking at the cause/trigger that sets off the depression, but by the cluster of reactive symptoms and their severity.

When I had PND I was seen by the leading perinatal mental health team in my country and this is how they explained it: men and women can get situational depression following the birth of a baby - and this can vary in severity, including the very severe - but only the person who gave birth can experience the depression that is triggered by hormonal and physical changes. They have different causes, are assessed differently and, in many cases, require different treatments.

The latter is what I believe should be called PND - but if we extend PND to include men, the latter kind of depression needs a separate term because it is a different thing. Not necessarily better or worse, but different.

peachgreen my consultant gynaecologist told me the same thing. Classic PND is triggered by the huge hormonal fluctuations after giving birth. And this PND is often highly resistant to standard anti depressants because of the hormonal element. Ideally, PND should be treated with high dose estrogen but that's still considered contraversial.in the NHS.

But, it's for this reason that NICE guidelines now state that women suffering with peri menopausal depression shouldn't be offered anti depressants as first line treatment - and that HRT should be the first option.

Men also suffer post natal depression triggered by hormonal fluctuations. I’m not denying that hormones aren’t one of several causes for PND, but to say this doesn’t happen in men is outdated thinking. Yes the hormone levels are different, but hormone fluctuations caused by pregnancy and fatherhood are ALSO a cause of PND in men:

Postpartum Depression in Men
Jonathan R. Scarff, MD
Innov Clin Neurosci. 2019 May 1; 16(5-6): 11–14.
Published online May-Jun 2019.
PMCID: PMC6659987

“According to a review article by Kim and Swain,11 a father can experience hormonal changes during pregnancy and for several months following the birth of the child. Many of these hormonal changes are thought to assist in the formation of a strong father-child relationship. For example, Kim and Swain described studies linking decreased testosterone levels in new fathers to lower levels of aggression and increased sympathetic responses to a crying baby—effects that, in turn, are thought to strengthen the father’s attachment to the child.
Kim and Swain also described studies linking increased estrogen levels in new fathers to more engaged paternal parenting behaviors.

Additionally, increases in other hormones, such as cortisol, vasopressin, and prolactin, might be associated with more engaged paternal parenting and stronger parent-infant attachment.11

These hormonal changes, however, might predispose the father to experience PPD or exacerbate existing symptoms associated with PPD. For example, low testosterone has been directly linked to symptoms of depression in men,12 whereas low levels of estrogen, prolactin, vasopressin, and/or cortisol in new fathers might cause difficulties in father-infant bonding/attachment, which in turn can contribute to depressed mood in the father.11 Table 2 compares hormonal changes between men and women during prepartum and postpartum periods.11–13”

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6659987/#!po=23.3333

Note PND is called PPD in the United States, but is same thing.

One suggestion is to distinguish the two by calling PND for mothers, maternal postnatal depression (MPD) and for fathers, paternal postnatal depression (PPD).

Not all mothers give birth though. Adoptive mothers and lesbian non-biological mothers may also suffer "new parent depression" but won't present the same very specific medical considerations as a woman who's just given birth.

Maybe they should call it PBD post baby depression for men it definitely can be a trying time, but they didn't birth anyone 🤷🏻‍♀️

@EmpressCixi

One suggestion is to distinguish the two by calling PND for mothers, maternal postnatal depression (MPD) and for fathers, paternal postnatal depression (PPD).

But fathers aren't postnatal 🤦🏽‍♀️ they are just depressed.

But fathers aren't postnatal 🤦🏽‍♀️ they are just depressed

Yes exactly. PND is the specific condition caused by the biological experience of pregnancy and birth and the specific hormonal behaviours in a woman's body. It can develop into pyschosis.

Anything else is not postnatal, its depression associated with a major life event.

@C8H10N4O2

But fathers aren't postnatal 🤦🏽‍♀️ they are just depressed

Yes exactly. PND is the specific condition caused by the biological experience of pregnancy and birth and the specific hormonal behaviours in a woman's body. It can develop into pyschosis.

Anything else is not postnatal, its depression associated with a major life event.

Agree with this and the many similar observations. Postnatal depression in women who have recently given birth and situational depression as suffered by people around them who have not gone through the immense hormonal upheaval of pregnancy, birth and its aftermath are categorically different things. I’m astounded that anyone with any knowledge of reproductive biology can argue differently. It seems perverse.

It is incel type logic 😂

@EmpressCixi

Well, what else do you call it when a man comes down with depression due to the birth or stillbirth of his child? Just plain old depression? If so, then why isn’t it also plain old depression when a woman comes down with depression due to the birth or stillbirth of her child?

It seems to me that if we have a special name for depression caused by the birth or stillbirth of a parent’s child, we should use it equally for mothers and fathers. Or we just drop the “post natal” and it’s all plain old depression which can be caused by suicide, death, job loss, relationship breakup, financial issues, nothing, terminal illness, life changing injury, head injury, etc etc etc.

🤦‍♀️Becuase PND is relate to hormone changes immediately after birth and the impact on the brain due to that impacting serotonin Other depression is caused by changes to the serotonin levels in the brain caused by other things such as stress, lack of sleep, sleep apnea, , shock, poor self esteeem, grief etc etc - any number of things Anyone can get depression at any time- including unsurprising new fathers. But the sort of depression caused by progesterone and estrogen changes are restricted to women: PND, pre menstruaters tension and peri menopausal anxiety and depression, I had both PND and other bouts of depression unconnected to anything hormonally. The sysmtoms don’t change necessarily- the term PND allows us to serrated out a class of people who have depression for a very specific reason, and identify a class of people who are at a higher risk of development of depression . This allows health visitors and doctors to monitor transient “ baby blues” and intervene early if it evolves into PND, or god forbid post partum psychosis Men cannot get PND in terms of how that word was originally intended . It’s another example of those that are in control of the language control the power.

[quote EmpressCixi]Men also suffer post natal depression triggered by hormonal fluctuations. I’m not denying that hormones aren’t one of several causes for PND, but to say this doesn’t happen in men is outdated thinking. Yes the hormone levels are different, but hormone fluctuations caused by pregnancy and fatherhood are ALSO a cause of PND in men:

Postpartum Depression in Men
Jonathan R. Scarff, MD
Innov Clin Neurosci. 2019 May 1; 16(5-6): 11–14.
Published online May-Jun 2019.
PMCID: PMC6659987

“According to a review article by Kim and Swain,11 a father can experience hormonal changes during pregnancy and for several months following the birth of the child. Many of these hormonal changes are thought to assist in the formation of a strong father-child relationship. For example, Kim and Swain described studies linking decreased testosterone levels in new fathers to lower levels of aggression and increased sympathetic responses to a crying baby—effects that, in turn, are thought to strengthen the father’s attachment to the child.
Kim and Swain also described studies linking increased estrogen levels in new fathers to more engaged paternal parenting behaviors.

Additionally, increases in other hormones, such as cortisol, vasopressin, and prolactin, might be associated with more engaged paternal parenting and stronger parent-infant attachment.11

These hormonal changes, however, might predispose the father to experience PPD or exacerbate existing symptoms associated with PPD. For example, low testosterone has been directly linked to symptoms of depression in men,12 whereas low levels of estrogen, prolactin, vasopressin, and/or cortisol in new fathers might cause difficulties in father-infant bonding/attachment, which in turn can contribute to depressed mood in the father.11 Table 2 compares hormonal changes between men and women during prepartum and postpartum periods.11–13”

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6659987/#!po=23.3333[/quote]
This is fine and good to see research.
BUT
they are still not post natul or post partum….they are not pregnant and it is not progesterone r eastrogen that is causing this

This condition in men needs a clearly identifying different name - without that it will be impossible to highlight it, understand is prevalence and understand how to treat.

That is why PND was used to describe this type of depression in women- to allow us to name it, track it, treat it for the specific cause it has
It is not PND

I agree the language isnt right, calling male depression after the birth of a baby "post-natal depression" ignores the "birth injury" aspect of PND.

I agree that there is a type of depression in males triggered by birth, it's just not post natal depression. The PND I experienced was so much worse than my garden variety depression, I can't even begin to describe it. The hormones made it so all consuming, three years on and I'm only just really getting to a place where I'm fully recovered.

EmpressCixi
Well, what else do you call it when a man comes down with depression due to the birth or stillbirth of his child? Just plain old depression?

No this is grief and depression.

If so, then why isn’t it also plain old depression when a woman comes down with depression due to the birth or stillbirth of her child?
*
This is grief and depression, also sometimes postnatal depression. A condition that follows giving birth (postnatal). 1 in 10 women suffer from this condition in the year following birth. This statistic is higher in bereaved mothers.*

It seems to me that if we have a special name for depression caused by the birth or stillbirth of a parent’s child, we should use it equally for mothers and fathers.

Postnatal does not refer to the death of a child. It is a condition suffered by some women following the birth of their baby. It can contribute to PND in a woman. Men by their physicality can not be in a post natal state of being. They have not gestated, given birth too or breastfed a baby.

Or we just drop the “post natal” and it’s all plain old depression which can be caused by suicide, death, job loss, relationship breakup, financial issues, nothing, terminal illness, life changing injury, head injury, etc etc etc.

Again this is depression - circumstantial or situational. There is no need to drop post natal from the experience suffered by some women. That would be cancellation of a well documented and recognised medical condition.

We will just have to agree to disagree. The fact that numerous professionals in the field are writing dozens of research papers on PND in men, tells me MN has quite a talent for denial by claiming men can’t get PND. PND in men is a documented and recognised medical condition.

You can be the proverbial ostrich, or actually read the research. PND in men isn’t caused by serotonin levels or other claptrap. It can also be triggered by hormones such as estrogen, testosterone, oxytocin, progesterone- all the same hormones triggering some cases of PND in women.

And yes, you can get PND following a still birth as well as a live birth or even an adopted birth. You don’t have to have given birth to a live baby to get PND. In fact, a woman who has a still birth is 7x more likely to develop PND than a woman who has a live birth.

There is so much out-dated information on this thread, I encourage you all to read the more recent literature out there.

Paternal depression would be a more accurate term for it.

Men haven't given birth, whatever hormones are driving their depression. Isn't most depression associated with hormonal changes? This is specifically a form of depression many new mothers have of which a large component is associated with hormonal changes around pregnancy and birth.

And "numerous professionals in the field" write all sorts of reality denying nonsense which decentres female bodies and experiences.

I don't think anyone has suggested that a woman whose baby has died is ineligible for a PND diagnosis It's possible that diagnosis could be complicated, because there's grief in the equation, but the conversation isn't going to be a matter of "no baby, no PND" is it??

Isn't most depression associated with hormonal changes?

No. Depression can also be:
Genetic/hereditary
Reactive/situational
Biochemical (serotonin, dopamine and norepinephrine are not hormones, they are neurotransmitters)
Seasonal