To say post natal depression is limited to women?

[user7643789]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-60319568

I do believe men can experience depression at any stage in life but as they cannot give birth they don't experience the hormonal and physical response.

I had Post Adoption depression after adopting our second child.
It was tough. I managed to get through infertility, IVF, plus the enormous stress of 2 adoptions without getting depressed and then when it was all over and I had my 2 children, Bam, I was floored.

Who cares what it's called when it affects men. It's all semantic. What we know is men suffer from depression to with the arrival of a newborn but it's much more taboo for men to admit it and certainly doesn't get the sympathy new mothers get.

The article makes it very clear that there can be different triggers, physical/hormonal and other. I think you're being disingenuous OP.

There is no "worst" depression - depression is shit whether it's hormonal or not.

@vivainsomnia

Who cares what it's called when it affects men. It's all semantic. What we know is men suffer from depression to with the arrival of a newborn but it's much more taboo for men to admit it and certainly doesn't get the sympathy new mothers get.

I can assure you many women suffering with PND are not getting this sympathy you speak of and it's still taboo for them.

Crimesean how OP being disingenuous? The article is headline is about PND in men.
The OP there are different types of depression, but men don't suffer from PND.

@vivainsomnia women do not get sympathy, particularly from professionals when suffering with PND. I turned up at my doctors surgery for an emergency appointment when my dc1 was 3 weeks old. I’d really frightened myself as I nearly jumped off my balcony the previous night as I felt I couldn’t look after my son in the way he deserved and if I was dead they’d find a proper mum for me. Doctor was irritated with me, told me these appointments are for emergencies only and that all new mum’s feel like this, the midwife should have warned me about it in my appointments and that next time I felt like that I should take a deep breath, have a cup of tea and remember that my son needs me to have a clear head. I slashed my wrists a week later and was still treated as an inconvenience.

@Crimesean

The article makes it very clear that there can be different triggers, physical/hormonal and other. I think you're being disingenuous OP.

There is no "worst" depression - depression is shit whether it's hormonal or not.

Different triggers, someone else giving birth isn't one of them.

Who's comparing the severity?

And how am I being disingenuous?

@KittenKong

Wasn’t there a story in the press recently where a surrogate mother was claiming post natal depression?

Yes she gave birth and so has the physiology of a postnatal woman. What is your point?

AutomaticMoon

From the paper you posted the hypothetical man who has PND:
He no longer participated in activities he used to enjoy, such as exercising and watching sports with friends. A 4 month old baby and the man can't participate in his hobbies and is a bit sad about it To compare this to PND is insulting isn't it.

Sprucewillis

The news story was about the commissioning Mother not the surrogate Mother.

user7643789

It's odd, I can't imagine the posters who are saying what does it matter what it's called or accusing women of gatekeeping PND would even have an issue with the different definitions for other mental health issues, no one would say its gatekeeping schizophrenia to say anxiety is not the same condition.

I compared the severity somewhere up thread but didn’t explain - thought it went without saying but in maternal mental health (not just depression) it’s obviously much more serious or severe because the consequences of untreated mental illnesses in pregnant/new mothers can affect the baby too in dramatic and lasting ways. It’s a major public health issue. Even if you just regard these women as incubators. And also because, in the UK at least, it’s still the leading cause of direct maternal death after delivery. That’s why it’s a specialism. That’s why we have mother and baby units etc. Nobody ever talks about this but a proportion of women don’t recover from their post birth psychoses. Most women do but not all.

Sorry I missed the word suicide from the leading cause of death part.

"Huge numbers of men suffer with MH issues and they have a much higher suicide/self harm rate which needs to be changed."

I read somewhere that women attempt suicide in greater numbers than men, but men are more successful at doing so, men use greater force and therefore die by suicide in greater numbers, I don't think that it means men are suffering more than women.

Men take human life more willingly and frequently than women, other people’s lives and their own.

@EmpressCixi

Well, what else do you call it when a man comes down with depression due to the birth or stillbirth of his child? Just plain old depression? If so, then why isn’t it also plain old depression when a woman comes down with depression due to the birth or stillbirth of her child?

It seems to me that if we have a special name for depression caused by the birth or stillbirth of a parent’s child, we should use it equally for mothers and fathers. Or we just drop the “post natal” and it’s all plain old depression which can be caused by suicide, death, job loss, relationship breakup, financial issues, nothing, terminal illness, life changing injury, head injury, etc etc etc.

It matters because the causes, diagnostic criteria and treatment paths are different.

If you pretend men suffering depression after a birth is the same as the post natal depression suffered by women then neither are treated correctly (or more likely, women will end up being diagnosed and treated according to the male criteria, as in so many other areas).

To turn the question around - why does it have to be called post natal (or post giving birth) depression when its men? Why can't it be depression triggered by becoming a parent?

Why must the term used specifically to describe a consequence of pregnancy and birth be contorted so that men can have it too?

And I’d argue potential in greater numbers, have you even seen the statistics on suicide and family homicides? Majority men and majority fathers

Ah that old chestnut. You do know that family homicide is near to 100% the result of male violence? And that young women attempt suicide just as much as men but tend to use less violent methods and are therefore less successful? Addressing male violence would reduce the death rates in both, if not the attempts at suicide.

So yes, mental health in men matters. Pretending its the same causes and solutions as women does a disservice to both.

@user1478172746

Men are scared of fundamental change in their life, of responsibility, of "growing up". Women are influenced by hormones, maybe traumatic birth plus all the former. Does not feel fair or genuine to mix it all up.

So it comes back to the worthiness of the depression.

Women, its because we are bountiful life givers, hormones and trauma, the fruiting forth of all life's potential. They've done nothing to cause the depression.

Men, its just cos they haven't grown up enough yet. If they were less immature they'd be fine.

@SleepingStandingUp IMO it is about the unique physiological changes that occur to the female body after giving birth (hence the specific label post natal). To do with hormones among other things. It is not possible for a man (or trans woman) to be in a post natal state as they have not grown or birthed a baby.

It is in no way a completion with the depression men or trans women can also go through at the same time and under the same conditions. It's not the same or comparable. It is simply different. Both can have equally devastating results for all concerned.

It is shocking to see men can get diagnosed with PND in Scotland more easier than women. Honestly I really do think 'doctors and phycologists' are really starting to troll women.

Why does a women have to score higher to be diagnosed with PND than a man when its the woman thats actually carried and gone through labour?

This is the insanity of it.

I suspect when the term PND was coined the author never dreamed they would have to explicitly state its for women who have been pregnant or given birth in the last year - like the charity MIND states.

I hate the fact I also have to state I am aware men get depressed, its serious and needs looking at because if I don't i'm accused of not taking mens mental health serious.

But I am sick of making room for men. Why can't women be centred when it comes to child birth.

And yes - midwives will be asked to ask about the fathers mental health when on prenatal check ups - incase men are experiencing perinatal depression. Obviously the midwives need work adding to their schedule as they have hardly nothing to do anyways..

I work with pregnant women. They complain that they have to reach their midwives through text and sometimes they hear nothing back. Now I know that is because they re massively behind already but why are we adding mens mental health to the list of things midwives need to do when women are already struggling to have the support needed.

Interesting article from the BJM (British Journal of Midwifery) They actually call it Paternal Postnatal Depression (PPND) , which tbh I'm ok with. It highlights the difference between the two - as they are both very different as you can see in the article. And language absolutely does matter

www.britishjournalofmidwifery.com/content/clinical-practice/paternal-postnatal-depression-how-midwives-can-support-families

Whilst I found the article interesting (in bits) this statement pissed me off.

For example, mothers sharing parenting roles with fathers may lower fathers' feelings of isolation from the relationship between mother and infant, as well as difficult feelings such as jealousy toward the infant

Honestly wtf? Really? How do I unpick that statement with out sounding like I don't like men?

@Sprucewillis I think a seperate name would be helpful, retain PND for the woman who's given birth (because it isn't just male and female, presumably a lesbian partner is in the same position as a man and they'd equally be unentitled to the term PND.
I was injecting to the "women get it through no fault of their own, men are just childish if they get it".

Why should women like men, what have they ever done for us? We probably all love a rare exceptional specimen or two but as a group?

@Ylfa

Men take human life more willingly and frequently than women, other people’s lives and their own.

Murder suicide is also included in the number of suicides, which of course disproportionately affects men's suicide rates compared to women.

I think a lot of men are unhappy when their partners have a baby because they are no longer the centre of attention.

It's narcissistic rage rather than depression

@Clymene

I think a lot of men are unhappy when their partners have a baby because they are no longer the centre of attention.

It's narcissistic rage rather than depression

To be honest I'm inclined to agree, although someone will be along shortly to tell us off.