AIBU to feel overwhelmed by non-binary, cancel culture, and woke society?

[FordSiesta]

I've got to the stage where I feel quite apprehensive about the future. It just feels like there will be no 'men' or 'women' or 'boys' and 'girls' and everyone will need to conform to various gender identities and have to remember all the different ways people identify so as not to accidently offend anyone. I'm supportive of transgender people and understand people changing from male to female or vice versa but now there's all this non-binary stuff it's getting confusing.

All these things going on in this 'woke society' and if you aren't seen as wanting to conform with all this new stuff then the 'cancel culture' comes at you.

I just feel like I would be happy if there wasn't so much pressure placed on people to get pronouns correct if for millions of years we've used he/him and she/her and now we need to say they/them when we were taught in school they/them was plural.

I don't have kids yet but I do wonder if I did what the world would be like for them growing up.

AIBU for wanting to just continue with two genders?

To reiterate my point, I do not agree with medical intervention, but most of these kids will never get that far, so to allow them to have a space to express who they think they are is generally a good thing, be it a fad, a cult, deluded nonsense, whatever you want to call it

but most of these kids will never get that far, so to allow them to have a space to express who they think they are is generally a good thing, be it a fad, a cult, deluded nonsense, whatever you want to call it

But people don't necessary agree that it's a good thing, or not in the way that you're presenting it.

Allowing them space to explore confusion and complexity about who they are in this world, who they want to be, coming to terms with an adult body, exploring all the myriad ways you could be male and female. Sure.

Encouraging them to believe that they're a woman in a man's body or vice verse, despite no real evidence for innate gender identities outside of societal stereotypes, playing along with a fairytale that you can 'change sex' and that would be the answer, no. I think that's harmful.

@Momicrone

To reiterate my point, I do not agree with medical intervention, but most of these kids will never get that far, so to allow them to have a space to express who they think they are is generally a good thing, be it a fad, a cult, deluded nonsense, whatever you want to call it

But if they are referred to a gender clinic they will be affirmed in their gender identity and put on a path towards medicalisation.

It's also worth noting that there are parents (including here on Mumsnet) who know their children are suffering from serious mental health problems, but because they have talked about being trans or non binary their parents don't feel able to get them any counselling because they have no way of checking in advance that the counsellor won't push them towards transition instead of getting to the bottom of what is really going on.

The keeping five, - Kids 'experimenting' with their gender, be it gender fluid, non binary etc, is not the same as changing sex. Choosing not to reject a child's inherent beliefs about themselves, however temporary or permanent, is not encouraging it.

Baby jellyfish, getting referred to a gender clinic is a massive step, that for most of these kids who are experimenting with their identity, won't happen, it's certainly not something I'd encourage

Right, but what about those whose parents buy into this batshit ideology? Or those who get sent to therapy because they have trauma from sexual abuse or an eating disorder, mention they feel like they might be trans and then get referred on to GIDS?

Who is going to protect those kids?

I don't know enough about it. I know I hated puberty and getting breasts and I was also a tomboy but always felt like a girl. I wanted to look like a girl and be a girl.

I have quite a few online friends whose daughters are either non binary or identify as boys. I don't know any the other way. I know of an adult transgender woman but I don't know if she's had any operations or takes any hormones. She still looks like a man, but she's in her 60s.

If it is a phase then it would be a tragedy to support it with hormones and operations. But for those who are people born in the wrong body they must be fully supported.

And since you can get people that are born both sexes physically then it also makes sense that their brain or whatever makes them them, can also be both or the wrong one.

Do you truly believe it is possible to be "born in the wrong body"? What does that even mean?

@ABCeasyasdohrayme

I've just changed my language to be neutral with my dcs friends so I don't have to keep up with their ever changing identities. They/them has been used for many years as a singular so it's not a big deal imo.

I mean seriously . This just shows how ridiculous the whole thing is, surely!

If these people think that gender is more important than sex then I guess the human race is doomed as I'd like to see a man and a trans woman procreate.

And it's definitely a fad - just watch Tik Tok for half an hour.

These are the SAME kids who back in the day (i'm thinking early 90's) would have all been goth kids/emo kids/basically kids doing crazy things with hair and make up purely to be 'different'

I actually think it's ludicrous to indulge it. Dangerous actually. We are literally talking about 0.001% of people who actually ARE in the wrong body due to genetic issues. That's it. So why are we making out like it's all cool to allow the world and his wife to behave in this way? Bonkers. There. I've said it.

Kids 'experimenting' with their gender, be it gender fluid, non binary etc, is not the same as changing sex.

But surely there's no need to bring sex into it at all. You are the biological sex you are born into and nothing can change that.

You can play around with gender stereotypes (because that is what they are) as much as you like and that's not a new thing.

The problem is that they do conflate the two and are often encouraged to by society around them.

@babyjellyfish

Do you truly believe it is possible to be "born in the wrong body"? What does that even mean?

@babyjellyfish Yes. i'm no expert on this but 20 years ago (before this was so much in the news) I had a colleague, then a woman, who was so clearly not comfortable as a woman. He had a female partner (so then gay) and we were talking about kids and he was mentioning how they would like to start a family. I asked if him or his partner would get pregnant and his face of horror at the thought of carrying a baby made his feelings clear! A few years later I heard he had transitioned and I wasn't surprised at all. If there was someone who had been born in the wrong body, it was him.

And since you can get people that are born both sexes physically

I know I missed a couple of pages on this thread but has someone posted the specifics about this condition?

If not, Momijin, could you tell us specifically which conditions you refer to here.

What exactly is the medical condition or medical conditions to which you refer? If you are referring to a difference in sex development, which one/ones mean a person has both gametes in their body?

It is important not to spread misinformation.

Fair enough.

I guess my feeling is that no one knows what it feels like to be anybody other than themselves so I'm not sure how you could know that what you are feeling is because you were "born in the wrong body".

I think a female person with dysphoria feels like a female person with dysphoria, not a man without dysphoria.

In any case, even if a very small number of people genuinely are better off transitioning, I don't think this applies to the vast majority of young people (particularly female) wanting to transition now. I think it's appalling that they are being affirmed rather than getting the appropriate counselling to find out what is really wrong.

then a woman, who was so clearly not comfortable as a woman. He had a female partner (so then gay)

This is such a good example of mangled language which goes hand in hand with conflating sex and gender.

If your female colleague was in a lesbian relationship then decided they were a man and continued in a relationship with the same or another women they are STILL gay.

How odd to think that 'transitioning' makes a single sex attracted person straight.

How odd to think that 'transitioning' makes a single sex attracted person straight.

There seems to be some internalised homophobia at play here.

@Momijin

I don't know enough about it. I know I hated puberty and getting breasts and I was also a tomboy but always felt like a girl. I wanted to look like a girl and be a girl.

I have quite a few online friends whose daughters are either non binary or identify as boys. I don't know any the other way. I know of an adult transgender woman but I don't know if she's had any operations or takes any hormones. She still looks like a man, but she's in her 60s.

If it is a phase then it would be a tragedy to support it with hormones and operations. But for those who are people born in the wrong body they must be fully supported.

And since you can get people that are born both sexes physically then it also makes sense that their brain or whatever makes them them, can also be both or the wrong one.

No one is "born in the wrong body". The only way that can "work" is if it is a belief that people have gendered (sexed?) souls that can be somehow incorrectly placed into a body that doesn't "match". It's an unscientific fantasy.

Regarding this:

And since you can get people that are born both sexes physically then it also makes sense that their brain or whatever makes them them, can also be both or the wrong one.

You cannot get people that are "born both sexes physically", that's just not true. You can get some people with DSDs that might have issues with the development of their primary and secondary sex characteristics. They are still male or female, with a DSD.

Brains are part of your body, and cannot be a different sex to the rest of you. Your brain and your body aren't some separate entities that get mix and matched at conception.

@lifeturnsonadime

then a woman, who was so clearly not comfortable as a woman. He had a female partner (so then gay)

This is such a good example of mangled language which goes hand in hand with conflating sex and gender.

If your female colleague was in a lesbian relationship then decided they were a man and continued in a relationship with the same or another women they are STILL gay.

How odd to think that 'transitioning' makes a single sex attracted person straight.

@lifeturnsonadime i don't conflate sex and gender at all. But I also accept that biological sex isn't as well defined as you seem to think. Neither is sexual orientation. I didn't say anything about my former colleague's current sexual orientation by the way. The biases and prejudice are all your own.

I expect momijin will be along soon with the conditions they were referring to.

I would hate to see misinformation casually used to support the notion that anyone was ever born in the wrong body. Or would believe the brain can be ‘opposite’ sex.

I mean, does that mean women can have a male brain? And how does that work? And if that is correct, then why aren’t brain scans used to tell if people are trans?

Balaboostah

Yes. i'm no expert on this but 20 years ago (before this was so much in the news) I had a colleague, then a woman, who was so clearly not comfortable as a woman... If there was someone who had been born in the wrong body, it was him.

Many years ago I had a partner who transitioned (MtF), they said they felt like a woman. The relationship ended but I fully supported them through the process. I didn't ask how they knew what it was like to feel like a woman but I always wondered how that was even possible. If I felt uncomfortable in my body would you accept it if I said I felt like a giraffe and agree I had been born in the wrong species? I am not and never have been a giraffe, how could I possibly understand what it's like to be a giraffe?How would I conceive the idea that my discomfort is due to not being born a giraffe?

I can accept that some people feel uncomfortable with their physical body but I don't understand how we get from that to "born in the wrong body". We don't have to agree with someone in order to believe and accept they feel that way. My next question is how did we arrived at the conclusion that surgically altering a body was the correct treatment for this feeling? We treat other conditions relating to body perception with therapy, not hormones and surgery.

But I also accept that biological sex isn't as well defined as you seem to think. Neither is sexual orientation.

Please enlighten me then as to how you would define biological sex and sexual orientation?

I'm going with the 2 sexes for biological sex and that a person who is same sex attracted, or indeed heterosexual, is not transphobic if they reject somebody on the basis of their genitalia. Any alternative to that, on sexual orientation, seems a bit homophobic to me.

But I also accept that biological sex isn't as well defined as you seem to think. Neither is sexual orientation.

These things are both very well defined though.

Female: the childbearing sex.
Male: the sperm producing sex.
Intersex/DSD: rare conditions where a male or female person has some features of the opposite sex
Sexual orientation: whether you are sexually attracted to people of the same sex, people of the opposite sex, people of both sexes, or nobody
Heterosexual: attracted to people of the opposite sex
Homosexual: attracted to people of the same sex
Bisexual: attracted to people of both sexes
Gay man: person of the male sex attracted to other people of the male sex
Lesbian: person of the female sex attracted to other people of the female sex

Only trans activists pretend these terms are not well defined or understood.

If a son of mine wanted to wear a dress or a daughter wanted to reject her feminity, as parents what are we supposed to do? Anger and rejection ain't going to get us very far.