AIBU to think Brits don't care about state involvement in murders in NI?

[Somatronic]

More evidence of state collusion in loyalist murders of Catholics/nationalists in Northern Ireland. This time it's the RUC.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/feb/08/evidence-police-in-belfast-colluded-with-loyalists-in-the-troubles-report-finds

AIBU to think that British people don't care that their army and British police forces were involved in the murder of civilians in Northern Ireland? That there's a strange attitude that only the IRA or republican actions were wrong?

@MorningStarling

People on all sides did things they shouldn't have. Ultimately the army and police response was to the actions of the paramilitary groups. Sometimes they did bad things, but so did the paramilitary groups. If there had been no IRA killing or bombing, no Loyalist counter-activities, then there would have been no need for the police/army to have done what they did.

The people to blame for what happened in Northern Ireland are the terrorists and their supporters.

But the British are not Irish. So we effectively stole 1/2 their country. We are an occupying force. Surely that makes us morally wrong in the first instance?

@WeValueYourPrivacy

The UK never really faced up to its colonial past and Ireland is no exception.

This.

The section below is less than 30yrs old. There is no maybes, possibilities, it is clear the thought process of loyalist terrorists.

Not to mention a sitting MEP openly condone the option as long term thinking.

The violence Beas most certainly known and condoned by every Westminster government.

In early January 1994, the Ulster Defence Association (UDA) released a document calling for repartition combined with genocide, with the goal of making Northern Ireland wholly Protestant.[16] The plan was to be implemented should the British Army withdraw from Northern Ireland. The vastly Irish Catholic and nationalist areas would be handed over to the Republic, and those left stranded in the "Protestant state" would be "expelled, nullified, or interned".[16] The story was printed in the Sunday Independentt^ newspaper on 16 January.[17] The "doomsday plan" was based on the work of Liam Kennedy, though he had not proposed ethnic cleansing.[16] Sammy Wilson, then press officer for the Democratic Unionist Party and later the MP for East Antrim, spoke positively of the document, calling it a "valuable return to reality" and lauded the UDA for "contemplating what needs to be done to maintain our separate Ulster identity".[

@HoliHormonalTigerlilly

No, it is nowhere near half of Ireland.

NI consists of 6 counties, Ireland has 32 counties, with Ulster having 9 counties, NI sits within Ulster but is not all of Ulster.

Irish government governs 29 counties while Westminster/Stormont govern 6 counties.

That should be 26 counties not 29

I care but I think (or like to think)!I've read enough understand the complexity of the situation. I genuinely believe the generation above me have been subjected to a huge cover up both through their education and through media reporting at the time. I've only came to that conclusion through talking to my parents but so obviously I may be wrong but they have a ridiculously skewed perspective of events. I don't know what it'll actually take for them to take their blinkers off though.

I've said this before though despite the fact that I covered Ireland when I did a-level history, the first time I ever remember seeing anything that was even remotely different from the IRA bad/British army good narrative was when I watched the movie the hunger.

[quote DublinFemale]@HoliHormonalTigerlilly

No, it is nowhere near half of Ireland.

NI consists of 6 counties, Ireland has 32 counties, with Ulster having 9 counties, NI sits within Ulster but is not all of Ulster.

Irish government governs 29 counties while Westminster/Stormont govern 6 counties. [/quote]
Ok not half then. The point I'm making is about colonialism. Surely, taking any amount of someone else's country is morally wrong? We effectively caused the problem in the first place. Much like we did elsewhere in the world.

@HoliHormonalTigerlilly

I understand your point I also have seen enough BBC, C4 programmes with street interviews of how little some people actually know about the geographical divide.

Some people genuinely do believe it is half the or more of the country.

www.irishnews.com/news/brexit/2017/11/29/news/watch-this-channel-4-video-of-british-people-struggling-to-draw-the-northern-ireland-border-1199556/

The point I'm making is about colonialism. Surely, taking any amount of someone else's country is morally wrong? We effectively caused the problem in the first place. Much like we did elsewhere in the world.

Who is the “we” who was responsible for the colonialism? It’s not like all the English population got a say in what happened, they didn’t even all have the right to vote - that was 1 in 3 men, if you owned property.

Did the “we” treat the English population any better than the rest of their colonies?

The British public (a fairly loud section)are quite happy to pull down slave owners statutes. They are happy to acknowledge wrongdoing from that time.

NI is ongoing wrong doing. There is still festering open wounds which need to healed.

Today's Westminster consists of a Home Secretary who quite blatantly attempted to stir ill feeling with threats of Irish food blockages. She was voted in by the voters of today.

If my understanding is correct of your system, she was first to get enough votes to take that seat and represent that area. That screams of plain old fashioned racism, just the No Irish, No Blacks, No dogs signs missing.

@StoneofDestiny

Without the IRA, the loyalists would not have existed

This can't be a serious belief - surely?

I genuinely think that that what they believe. And they're too indolent and dismissive of the nationalist population in NI to find out.

@ivykaty44

The point I'm making is about colonialism. Surely, taking any amount of someone else's country is morally wrong? We effectively caused the problem in the first place. Much like we did elsewhere in the world.

Who is the “we” who was responsible for the colonialism? It’s not like all the English population got a say in what happened, they didn’t even all have the right to vote - that was 1 in 3 men, if you owned property.

Did the “we” treat the English population any better than the rest of their colonies?

I'm saying "we" because I am British @ivykaty44

We can't detach ourselves from history because we weren't personally there.

I didn't vote for this current shit show of a government. Or for Brexit. But it doesn't stop me being embarrassed by them or very angry with them!

@HoliHormonalTigerlilly

Sadly enough people did in their droves, all the while knowing that the leader had a dubious relationship with the truth.

All the while knowing that the plans for NI was going to cause huge problems not only for their fellow citizens (I use fellow citizens in context anyone who identify as British) but for all citizens in NI.

There have been various remarks from Westminster about Ireland within the Brexit aftermath.

DublinFemale I think Brexit will be worse for Britain then Northern Ireland, at least they can hold still be EU citizens the rest of us have lost everything and over half did not vote for it! I have no idea why anyone would vote in Priti Patel as no one likes her however she is conservative and that what people with assets want in power. Priti Patels comments are often mentioned on these threads, but Theresa May clarified the fact that this viewpoint was not shared by the government at the time.

Nope. Knew nothing about it until I moved here.

Unpopular as it is we do need a statute of limitations on prosecutions. We need truth and to move forward - that will not happen without it. NI needs to put it history to bed to some extent (but not forgotten) so it can actually move forward instead of the never ending circle of blame and divided politics.

We can't detach ourselves from history because we weren't personally there.

Why? We can’t be responsible for the rulers of our ancestors, we can learn from it and choose to vote in a way to prevent history repeating itself

Do you think other countries citizens should also be embarrassed about what their ancestors fellow rulers may have done.

Brexit is a complete shitshow all round, however suggesting it is better for NI because they can retain EU citizenship?

Potential to plunge the country back into a bloody civil war but it's way worse for the people on the mainland because they've lost the advantages of being EU citizens? Really?

I think Brexit is currently affecting supply chains much worse in NI that on the mainland.

@FortVictoria

The people of Northern Ireland (Catholic and Protestant alike) ARE British. So quite odd to say the Brits don’t care. Do you mean that the English don't care?

Actually that's quite offensive things to say and shows you have absolutely no understanding of NI. Lots of people in NI identify as Irish or Northern Irish and would be deeply offended at being called British.

@ivykaty44

We can't detach ourselves from history because we weren't personally there.

Why? We can’t be responsible for the rulers of our ancestors, we can learn from it and choose to vote in a way to prevent history repeating itself

Do you think other countries citizens should also be embarrassed about what their ancestors fellow rulers may have done.

We are talking about living memory here, not the distant past. In this instance, we're talking about collusion being covered up today. To-actual-day. It's not about ancestors.

Also, look at brexit and how that's affecting the people of NI, in part because of this attitude that you can't be responsible for the past and how can you be expected to understand what happens in your own nation.

We are talking about living memory here, not the distant past. In this instance, we're talking about collusion being covered up today. To-actual-day.

Sorry I was taking it that the troubles had gone on much longer with the British interference in Ireland back longer than living history. Things like the potato famine etc

My father was an Irish Catholic born in NI, whose family came here well before the " troubles ", because her children would struggle to get an education or jobs. My Dad did go back briefly as a young man and couldn't get a job as a time served joiner as he was Catholic. Remember my Granny talking about the Black and Tans as she lived there during the partition.
There is quite a few documentaries, especially on the BBC regarding NI. I player has " The Troubles " and it interviews former terrorists from both sides of the divide as well as former Army personnel who were there, as well as Civilians. You can also search Spotlight ( NI made documentaries) also.
Gives an interesting insight into some of what went on.

BewareTheBeardedDragon I didn’t vote for Brexit so don’t take any responsibility whatsoever neither did my town actually. I think it will be potentially worse for Britain because I think the EU will support NI as most will still be EU citizens. As for a civil war I hope that this is something that can be avoided by not stirring up tensions.

I think if Brexit and the pandemic has proved anything it’s that people don’t care about other people, and that Many English people have a really poor understanding of their own history, and an inability to see themselves as anything other than the good guys

I think Americans can fall into the same trap. Look at how they see themselves as the much put upon victims in the Vietnam war.