AIBU to think Brits don't care about state involvement in murders in NI?

[Somatronic]

More evidence of state collusion in loyalist murders of Catholics/nationalists in Northern Ireland. This time it's the RUC.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/feb/08/evidence-police-in-belfast-colluded-with-loyalists-in-the-troubles-report-finds

AIBU to think that British people don't care that their army and British police forces were involved in the murder of civilians in Northern Ireland? That there's a strange attitude that only the IRA or republican actions were wrong?

Let's play pretend.

The Manchester arena bomber killed 23 people in his attack and injured 1,017. Now remember the population of England is around 56m compared to NI 1.8m.

Now imagine it comes out that this Islamist Etremist suicide bomber had been given information and access to the arena by the British Army and security forces. The reason? Well some people shouldn't listen to pop music.

Would you then be angry? Would you then believe in collusion and be wanting punishment for the atrocity? Or would it not matter because you don't listen to Arianna Grande and have the opinion that pop music is shit? Thus those innocent people at the concert are different to you.

There was a statistic going around at the time which I now can't find that adjusted for population size, the Manchester arena bombing was comparable to the death toll that the Troubles faced every day for 30 years. So every day people in NI lost loved ones in mass numbers. Yes some of those were on the baddies side, whether it be UVF/IRA/UDA/PIRA but many many were innocent. 52 innocent children were killed
Countless innocent adults. And many of them either by or with the aid of information passed from British Security Forces.

I, as a person from NI and who grew up through the troubles do not want "you" to feel blame. God knows I am not represented by the government in Stormont. But what I would like is acceptance that these awful things happened and that people need to know how deep the corruption and conspiracy was in NI and that they (Republican/Loyalist/British Government) shaped the outcome of generations.

@QueenOfHiraeth

are you not concerned that your govt is trying to bring in an amnesty for the soldiers who shot and killed 14 men and boys on a civil rights march on Bloody Sunday Whilst realising two wrongs do not make a right, there is surely an issue in prosecuting soldiers when IRA terrorists have been granted amnesty You cannot look at the events of Bloody Sunday without a wider awareness of those times. Media today focuses solely on those killed on this day and the effect the killings had on the following years in Northern Ireland. What the media doesn't give is any sort of context or background to the events of that day like the fact that between March 1971 and 30th January 1972, republican terrorists had murdered 52 British soldiers. Nothing excuses violence, lawlessness or brutality on any side

By your logic soldiers from theRoyal Artillery BarracksinWoolwich would be justified to kill worshipers at any London Mosques?

A little friendly fire on non-combatants?

@TheKeatingFive

If there had been no IRA killing or bombing, no Loyalist counter-activities, then there would have been no need for the police/army to have done what they did.

The people to blame for what happened in Northern Ireland are the terrorists and their supporters.

No. The IRA didn't just appear out of a vacuum. They emerged as a response to systematic and deliberate suppression of Catholic rights in NI. You need to do some reading on this, naked ignorance is not a good look nowadays.

This!!!

The people to blame for what happened in Northern Ireland are the terrorists and their supporters.

No. The IRA didn't just appear out of a vacuum. They emerged as a response to systematic and deliberate suppression of Catholic rights in NI. You need to do some reading on this, naked ignorance is not a good look nowadays.

This is very true. You don't like what happens in Gaza, parts of China, human rights abuses across the world? Try being Catholic in Northern Ireland prior to the Good Friday Agreement.

@MorningStarling

People on all sides did things they shouldn't have. Ultimately the army and police response was to the actions of the paramilitary groups. Sometimes they did bad things, but so did the paramilitary groups. If there had been no IRA killing or bombing, no Loyalist counter-activities, then there would have been no need for the police/army to have done what they did.

The people to blame for what happened in Northern Ireland are the terrorists and their supporters.

Seems you did not read the report. The army/government and police force used the paramilitary organization as a hit squad. They were also quite clearly terrorists in the ral sense of the word.

Pretty egregious.

I have no skin in the game but it is shocking

@Furbulousnous

I wonder about the state of the history curriculum in England ( I’m in Education) - there’s now a massive emphasis on trying to introduce diversity into as it’s still all a bit Henry the 8th, industrial Revolution and the Victorians. Britain has such an awful colonial history between Ireland, India, the Middle East, Slave ships and on and on and on it makes me glad I’m not English and I can see why it’s not always addressed as it should be though the curriculum. I was having a convo the other day with some allegedly educated English people who were unaware that there had even been an Anglo Irish war and that Northern Ireland only came into existence 100 years ago.

I've said this on other threads. It's a big factor in where the British public is now. It's a fact that people on the Continent know more about British&Irish history than we do, I've been embarrassed several times. To keep us ignorant the government have systematically cherry-picked history topics to suit educational policy and make GB look good. Hence we're experts on analysing WW1, WW2 and the Falklands, the Vikings, the Romans, Henry VIII and the Industrial Revolution, but it's all taken out of context. Nothing linear. Even last year's GCSE syllabus was like that.

Potato famines, why Scotland, Ireland and Wales hate England, our role in the Middle East, zilch...you don't realise how harmful the propaganda is until years later. Combine that with media censorship and bias, and it's hardly surprising that the UK doesn't know how to vote and doesn't understand why it's in this mess.

I'm hoping children in Ireland are better informed?

Well, post famine Irish history is a big deal on the history syllabus, so yes, I guess so.

If you're interested in this, watch the documentary on The Miami Showband Massacre. It's on rte player and I think it's on netflix? Such an eye opener. I thought the British whistle-blowers who came forward were so brave. I found it very poignant to know that there were some British people who were trying to help us.

They tried to discredit Fred Holroyd by sectioning him.

@Sugartitsorahilly

If you're interested in this, watch the documentary on The Miami Showband Massacre. It's on rte player and I think it's on netflix? Such an eye opener. I thought the British whistle-blowers who came forward were so brave. I found it very poignant to know that there were some British people who were trying to help us.

That's was chilling. Can you imagine the outcry if that happened in a road in Lancashire.

What was really hard to take was the survivor saying when they heard the English accent, they relaxed, thinking they'd be ok

I know It was very sad.

‘ I'm hoping children in Ireland are better informed?’

The history I was taught was very much looking at history in the context of Europe and how Northern Ireland was a part of that. We also did much more on conflict - Arab -Israeli, US, wars - and a lot less on the Kings and Queens of England although lots on the U.K. itself.
This vikings and Magna Carta and Hentry 8th was very much left after Prinary school.
I feel it was both more well rounded and interesting. We actually did less than you would think on Irish history - worried about turning us into a bunch of nationalists I think. And when we looked at the history of NI and Ireland’s relationship with England we actually had joint classes with kids from the local Protestant school near us and were taught to think like historians

• examine, see both sides, question the source of the information, examine the motives of the testimony etc

That sounds very good. I wish we'd had that. As an adult I find history fascinating and actively seek it out. At school it was so very boring and I couldn't wait to drop it as soon as possible because it was so deadly dull and irrelevant seeming, how it was taught in the 90s in England.

I'm hoping children in Ireland are better informed?’

We did the potato famine, the French Revolution and the Easter Rising.

I'm hoping children in Ireland are better informed?’*
*
Thinking back, through English I learned about the American Indians, aborigines, titanic within the stories.

I also did Cromwell, 'To hell or to Connaught' Henry VIII, and all that came after that. The plantations, Battle of the Boyne, famine & coffin ships, Land league, Daniel O'Connell, Parnell, Bismarck, the lead up to WW1 & 2.

I also learned about our own cruelty, shunning of families during the famine for 'taking the bread'.

As you can probably see history is my passion. I love history.

also learned about our own cruelty, shunning of families during the famine for 'taking the bread'.

I didn't know about that.

@Goooglebox

also learned about our own cruelty, shunning of families during the famine for 'taking the bread'.

I didn't know about that.

I think taking the soup is the more common phrase. Soup was offered in exchange for changing religion by some religious groups.

I see, thanks. Heartbreaking.

Do people really know or care about the British army murdering civilians in the Ballymurphy massacre and then Bloody Sunday either?

For example, they shot the face off a young mother who was out trying to round up her recalcitrant teenagers, left her lying in a field for hours bleeding to death when she could have been saved, and those interviewed said her body was eventually thrown in a corridor with the others inside the make shift barracks where the interviewees said there was an atmosphere of triumph, a "high" etc.
They labelled her as an "IRA gunwoman" - later dismissed as lies by an enquiry.

They even shot dead the priest (waving waving white handkerchief) trying to give another man last rites.

And shot an injured man in the leg, after taking him into the barracks, then amused themselves playing Russian roulette with him, he died of a heart attack in custody.

This all happened at the ballymurphy massacre in Belfast, before Bloody sunday; yet the powers thst be choose to use the same regiment at Bloody Sunday

Decades of pursuing it and still no convictions, and only low ranking soldiers offered up, while the higher up ppl responsible for strategy and orders have not been touched, in fact they've were promoted I believe.

There's more than just the collusion.

I doubt anyone will ever get any justice from these abd the longer they drag it on the more they are assured of that.

I mean, I think the slow takeup of this thread shows that people do not care.

It was the parachute regiment incidentally.

The outgoing regiment before they were brought into Ballymurphy was said to be on decent terms with residents and gave gifts etc. And presumably did not play live shooting video games with civilians.

So as always, it's not as simple as saying the British Army; however the British Army abd the government has covered both up, made sure the perpetrators and decision makers never faced justice etc.

@PleasantBirthday

I mean, I think the slow takeup of this thread shows that people do not care.

There are a lot of Irish, Northern Irish and Scottish (who are often related to Irish and Northern Irish ppl) posters on here. And English ppl of Irish or Northern Irish descent.

Outside of those I have to say my experience of many English ppls knowledge and interest had been dire. Many are unaware of the existence of Northern Ireland for example, or don't understand it and don't know that the UK includes it, even though their passport says so on the front.

I'm from Northern Ireland and have had to explain to English ppl explaining about gcse's and a levels for example, that we are part of the UK and also do gcse's and a levels. It's that basic.

English ppl.also do not appear to cover Irish or NI history in school (?) At least that was my impression from several words colleagues and neighbours (the former relatively well educated).

*work colleagues

Personally, I find it a bit shocking that they are able to see themselves as cosmopolitan, well informed citizens of the world while being callously ignorant of something happening in what could be described as a part of their own state.