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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

AIBU to think Brits don't care about state involvement in murders in NI?

376 replies

Somatronic · 08/02/2022 14:36

More evidence of state collusion in loyalist murders of Catholics/nationalists in Northern Ireland. This time it's the RUC.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/feb/08/evidence-police-in-belfast-colluded-with-loyalists-in-the-troubles-report-finds

AIBU to think that British people don't care that their army and British police forces were involved in the murder of civilians in Northern Ireland? That there's a strange attitude that only the IRA or republican actions were wrong?

OP posts:
TeenPlusCat · 17/02/2022 11:45

NI seems so at odds with the rest of Britain.
That statement above may or may not be true but it is how it comes across to me at least.

  • sectarian political parties mean that it is largely 'irrelevant' to Westminster as it doesn't contribute MPs to the main parties
  • antiquated views on things like abortion
  • politicians seemingly incapable of working together
SevenSteps · 17/02/2022 11:47

YANBU OP. Haven't read the full thread, but there seems to be unbelievable ignorance about the origins of the troubles in the UK and most people, I know at least, seem to think the IRA simply existed in a vacuum. To be fair the very biased way it was reported in the media almost certainly contributed to this.

PleasantBirthday · 17/02/2022 11:47

I don't think there can be one with Brexit. And that's my issue with the attitude of people in GB (in terms of not caring). They had no problem with people being discriminated against for decades, didn't trouble them when people were being burned out of their homes or shot in the streets, don't really care if there was collusion between the security forces and terrorists and don't care that the GFA is under pressure due to Brexit. The problem is that these issues are ongoing and they are not resolved so saying, well, why doesn't everyone just move on? I know I have! doesn't change anything.

BewareTheBeardedDragon · 17/02/2022 12:06

@PleasantBirthday

Well, it is a mess, but it was a mess that was a long time in the making. I think that blaming these situations on long memories rather than history having an impact that is felt for a long time is a bit of an issue, though because it (even when it's not the intention) blames people who are still impacted long term.

It would take a very callous mind, for example, to look at the institution of slavery and the current position of the African American population in the US and say that they should never refer to the past and how it impacts their present because it's a long time ago.

Exactly. We've seen a similar attitude to recent history in some responses on this thread - that everything would be fine if people didn't 'stir things up' which is pretty callous when describing completely innocent victims' family's desire for truth and justice for their murdered loved ones.

Tbh it feels like gaslighting.

Toanewstart23 · 17/02/2022 12:10

It’s not that I don’t care
It’s just that so much other stuff to think about / sort / worry about

Right on my doorstep

Loveandlimpets · 17/02/2022 12:13

A United Ireland is on the way. Might be slow but it's inevitable.

TheKeatingFive · 17/02/2022 12:14

A United Ireland is on the way. Might be slow but it's inevitable.

Hmm, I think the citizens of ROI might have something to say about that

AryaStarkWolf · 17/02/2022 12:18

@TheKeatingFive

A United Ireland is on the way. Might be slow but it's inevitable.

Hmm, I think the citizens of ROI might have something to say about that

I think we owe it to NI to re unite if they want to do that, personally. I think we'd struggle for a few years but would end up stronger in the long run
TheKeatingFive · 17/02/2022 12:20

I think we owe it to NI to re unite if they want to do that, personally.

That may be true, it doesn't mean it will happen.

It's an enormous undertaking, I think for it to be successful it would take a LOT of compromise on both sides and decades of laying the groundwork. I'm not sure people are engaging with exactly what it would take.

AryaStarkWolf · 17/02/2022 12:21

@TheKeatingFive

I think we owe it to NI to re unite if they want to do that, personally.

That may be true, it doesn't mean it will happen.

It's an enormous undertaking, I think for it to be successful it would take a LOT of compromise on both sides and decades of laying the groundwork. I'm not sure people are engaging with exactly what it would take.

No I do understand that but I would still vote to reunite with the NI if that's what they wanted (and we had a vote on it here)
PleasantBirthday · 17/02/2022 12:24

@Loveandlimpets

A United Ireland is on the way. Might be slow but it's inevitable.
Yeah, dump the problems on us.

It's not that I disagree that it's the right and probably inevitable solution, I just hate that attitude that it's difficult so wash your hands of it and leave it to us to solve.

TheKeatingFive · 17/02/2022 12:24

No I do understand that but I would still vote to reunite with the NI if that's what they wanted (and we had a vote on it here)

Would you vote to throw out the constitution and rewrite it with significant unionist input?

Out of interest. Because that's where it would get tricky.

RettyPriddle · 17/02/2022 12:26

There’s a series of BBC documentaries about this: ‘Spotlight on The Troubles’ Discusses both sides in detail. Very interesting series.

AryaStarkWolf · 17/02/2022 12:36

@TheKeatingFive

No I do understand that but I would still vote to reunite with the NI if that's what they wanted (and we had a vote on it here)

Would you vote to throw out the constitution and rewrite it with significant unionist input?

Out of interest. Because that's where it would get tricky.

I don't think there could be significant unionist input if it was at odds with the majority of the united country, that wouldn't work, if we are 1 country then it has to be a majority rule. What kind of things would you be thinking of that would be Unionist changes by the way?
DublinFemale · 17/02/2022 14:05

I will adamantly say that I would not vote for a united Ireland for at least 10yrs.

We in the republic are not ready, that was seen with the poor decision of our government to sanction a Love Ulster parade down the main street of Dublin in 2006, I think.

The financial impact won't just be a few bad years, we have to foot the SW bill of NI, which need to be the equal to what Irish people get now, the public wage bill, and also free healthcare. Can you really see a situation were one part of country pays to go to the doctor while the other part goes for free. That's another bill we have to find the money for, free health care for the whole of Ireland.

Also the people on opposing sides of the political divide prone to violent means are not gone away.

I say that with a NI parent and family still in the NI. I would still vote no.

It's going to take another generation before the mind sets have moved to the option of real negotiation, and yes there has to be real negotiation for all to live in peace.

If we learn nothing else, we (the Irish) need to ensure unionists have a voice, are heard and willing to negotiate to find a common ground.

PleasantBirthday · 17/02/2022 15:27

If we learn nothing else, we (the Irish) need to ensure unionists have a voice, are heard and willing to negotiate to find a common ground.

And once we do that, there will be little appetite for it.

TheKeatingFive · 17/02/2022 16:03

And once we do that, there will be little appetite for it.

Quite.

My original points were motivated by an article in the Irish Times that asked Unionists what it would take for them to commit to a United Ireland. The first and crucial point that was made was that they'd want the constitution torn up and rewritten to be much inclusive of them and their values.

Which illustrated the important point that those in ROI say they're happy to embrace a United Ireland, assuming that everyone is getting onside with their values and their vision for the nation.

But that's not what a truly United Ireland would be. We in ROI would have to lose (or adjust) some of who we are to gain the North. And I don't think there's any appetite for that at all.

PleasantBirthday · 17/02/2022 16:05

Me neither. I'm not sure I'd vote for it either, frankly. I think we'd be doing them a massive favour, although I'm aware they wouldn't agree!

TheKeatingFive · 17/02/2022 16:11

I wouldn't vote for it unless I felt reassured that we were creating a nation where everyone could feel comfortable within. Right now, that feels like an impossible task.

PleasantBirthday · 17/02/2022 16:12

I just don't see any upside for us at all.

AryaStarkWolf · 17/02/2022 16:14

@TheKeatingFive

And once we do that, there will be little appetite for it.

Quite.

My original points were motivated by an article in the Irish Times that asked Unionists what it would take for them to commit to a United Ireland. The first and crucial point that was made was that they'd want the constitution torn up and rewritten to be much inclusive of them and their values.

Which illustrated the important point that those in ROI say they're happy to embrace a United Ireland, assuming that everyone is getting onside with their values and their vision for the nation.

But that's not what a truly United Ireland would be. We in ROI would have to lose (or adjust) some of who we are to gain the North. And I don't think there's any appetite for that at all.

Well I mean lets for arguments sake say that one of these values is no to gay marriage, things like that would surely have to reflect the majority of the whole country, all of the ROI and all of NI. You can't force in values that the majority disagree with
TheKeatingFive · 17/02/2022 16:20

You can't force in values that the majority disagree with

There'd have to be some give and take. Otherwise it wouldn't be wise to go down that road in the first place. I'm not going to say precisely what that would be, I don't know.

With ROI I don't see any appetite to give anything. Most people are happy with the direction the country is headed in. They don't want to compromise. The message to the unionists would be 'put up or shut up' and that's never going to be the kind of deal that'll work out in the end.

So unless we're prepared to spend considerable time understanding the unionists and finding common ground with them, best shelve the idea of a United Ireland, because it's not going to end well.

AryaStarkWolf · 17/02/2022 16:23

@TheKeatingFive

You can't force in values that the majority disagree with

There'd have to be some give and take. Otherwise it wouldn't be wise to go down that road in the first place. I'm not going to say precisely what that would be, I don't know.

With ROI I don't see any appetite to give anything. Most people are happy with the direction the country is headed in. They don't want to compromise. The message to the unionists would be 'put up or shut up' and that's never going to be the kind of deal that'll work out in the end.

So unless we're prepared to spend considerable time understanding the unionists and finding common ground with them, best shelve the idea of a United Ireland, because it's not going to end well.

I guess it's hard to imagine without knowing what exactly we'd be expected to change. I just don't see how we could change any of our values if the majority of the whole country (NI & ROI combined) disagreed, it would cease to be a democracy in that case
PleasantBirthday · 17/02/2022 16:27

I think it's the fundamental nature of the country. A new constitution, a new flag, anthem, maybe a new country name. Possibly even trying to join the commonwealth.

AryaStarkWolf · 17/02/2022 16:32

@PleasantBirthday

I think it's the fundamental nature of the country. A new constitution, a new flag, anthem, maybe a new country name. Possibly even trying to join the commonwealth.
oh joining the Commonwealth, that'd be controversial Grin