AIBU to think Brits don't care about state involvement in murders in NI?

[Somatronic]

More evidence of state collusion in loyalist murders of Catholics/nationalists in Northern Ireland. This time it's the RUC.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/feb/08/evidence-police-in-belfast-colluded-with-loyalists-in-the-troubles-report-finds

AIBU to think that British people don't care that their army and British police forces were involved in the murder of civilians in Northern Ireland? That there's a strange attitude that only the IRA or republican actions were wrong?

I am English and feel quite embarrassed by my lack of knowledge in this area and I suspect compared to some, I'm reasonably well informed.
It is shocking how little the long history of England/Ireland and NI is covered in schools or in the media.
I thought during Brexit, the attitude of Westminster towards the EU and Ireland was illuminating. There was obvious irritation that the EU was standing by one of their members.

@Tamworth123 what's covered varies with the syllabus but we didn't cover it at my school.

I have always assumed it was because its too inflammatory being too recent history. There will be students in each school who's family has been involved on one side or another.

We did cover anti-Irish prejudice in the c19th which was every bit as shocking as learning about antisemitism.

@Tamworth123

Do people really know or care about the British army murdering civilians in the Ballymurphy massacre and then Bloody Sunday either?

For example, they shot the face off a young mother who was out trying to round up her recalcitrant teenagers, left her lying in a field for hours bleeding to death when she could have been saved, and those interviewed said her body was eventually thrown in a corridor with the others inside the make shift barracks where the interviewees said there was an atmosphere of triumph, a "high" etc.
They labelled her as an "IRA gunwoman" - later dismissed as lies by an enquiry.

They even shot dead the priest (waving waving white handkerchief) trying to give another man last rites.

And shot an injured man in the leg, after taking him into the barracks, then amused themselves playing Russian roulette with him, he died of a heart attack in custody.

This all happened at the ballymurphy massacre in Belfast, before Bloody sunday; yet the powers thst be choose to use the same regiment at Bloody Sunday

Decades of pursuing it and still no convictions, and only low ranking soldiers offered up, while the higher up ppl responsible for strategy and orders have not been touched, in fact they've were promoted I believe.

There's more than just the collusion.

I doubt anyone will ever get any justice from these abd the longer they drag it on the more they are assured of that.

I didn't know about this, no. Most of my schooling was overseas and there are noticeable gaps in my knowledge on various subjects from where we moved to the UK and I guess things got missed between the two school systems but it sounds like I wouldn't have known much about this regardless. I'd like to learn more for a number of reasons.

@Beamur

I am English and feel quite embarrassed by my lack of knowledge in this area and I suspect compared to some, I'm reasonably well informed. It is shocking how little the long history of England/Ireland and NI is covered in schools or in the media. I thought during Brexit, the attitude of Westminster towards the EU and Ireland was illuminating. There was obvious irritation that the EU was standing by one of their members.

With regards to your last point there, I'm Irish (ROI) and I did wonder if Northern Irish people - I suppose especially the more "British" Northern Irish people - found that eye opening and were surprised by that attitude

As a Remainer I was rooting for the ROI 😄
But, I also wondered how people in NI felt about it. It seemed to me that the Government was willing to steamroller through this change without regard to the negative effects it could have.

And shot an injured man in the leg, after taking him into the barracks, then amused themselves playing Russian roulette with him, he died of a heart attack in custody.

Do you have a link to this? Have those involved faced justice?

Over centuries, England has operated a policy of installing fear into citizens in Ireland and Northern Ireland through simple acts of terror such as you'd find in Myanmar. Rape, killing of mothers, children, priests, sons-it hasn't been very different to ISIS at times.

People don't know this.

@Goooglebox

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballymurphy_massacre

It's wiki, but is fairly accurate, also there was a documentary on Ballymurphy not so long ago, could be on Netflix.

That was so bad children were sent to refugee camps in Ireland set up by Irish government.

That army rampage went on for 3days I think.

I have never heard it called taken the soup, it was always taking the bread.

I've never heard the term taking the bread. But anyway, for anyone who is interested:

i For many, the term "taking the soup" is synonymous with the Famine story. Protestant Bible societies set up schools in which starving children were fed, on the condition of receiving Protestant religious instruction at the same time. As the food crisis deepened, some poor Catholic families had to choose between Protestantism and starvation.

www.irishcentral.com/roots/history/irish-famine-take-soup#:~:text=For%20many%2C%20the%20term%20%22taking%20the%20soup%22%20is,families%20had%20to%20choose%20between%20Protestantism%20and%20starvation.

I don't believe that there is any appetite for Westminster to care about NI.

But the general public is not all that bothered. It feels like to me it's not considered part of the UK, that could be simply because there is a sea between the two.

It's a financial burden. It's not self sufficient it has run a deficit yearly since 1966, with 15billion allocated in last budget. I think they would love nothing more than to get rid and not look back.

God, the absolute irony of Johnson privately apologising for Foster following the inquest result that all of the victims of Ballymurphy were innocent and the army had no justification for their actions, when Foster had personally tried to block the inquest even taking place. Utterly horrifying from beginning to end.

I didn't know Johnson had apologised for her, I knew she had blocked the inquest.

Sorry - to her, not for her. He phoned her to apologise for the army's actions. The irony.

The veto power of the parties in NI as part of the GFA is a double edged sword.

Not read the whole thread, but there is a total lack of understanding around tNorthern Ireland and Irish history. This is mainly because it is not taught in schools and ‘swept under the carpet’.

I don’t know much, but what I do understand doesn’t show us in a very positive light.

What is particularly difficult is the political framework and the fact that there is no clear or strong leadership. The fact that there are so many political parties with slightly differing views leads to a fractured structure with no concerns us and no decisions being made.

It is very complex partly religious, partly political and sadly partly traditional now.

I think many of us who lived through those times care very much about it. I can still recall the shock and horror I felt following the news of the Bloody Sunday shootings, as did many of my friends and family.

But events in NI really polarised opinion on the mainland. There were plenty of people who regarded the republicans as murdering bastards who deserved everything they got, and those of us who didn't were regarded by some as little better than IRA sympathisers.

One of my biggest fears, post-Brexit, is that our woeful government may do something to jeopardise peace in NI. The Good Friday agreement was a fantastic achievement and it will be heartbreaking if that were to be jeopardised. And some, like Gove, would probably be happy to see that happen.

@BewareTheBeardedDragon

God, the absolute irony of Johnson privately apologising for Foster following the inquest result that all of the victims of Ballymurphy were innocent and the army had no justification for their actions, when Foster had personally tried to block the inquest even taking place. Utterly horrifying from beginning to end.

Ballymurphy was horrific, but I think it's never lodged in the consciousness of people on the mainland in the way that Bloody Sunday has.

Johnson apologising to Foster and O'Neill, and not to the families, was bloody disgusting.

I don't believe that the opinion of Westminster will ever change.

They don't care and certainly have no interest or inclination to actually do something to help NI.

Yes.
I care. Deeply.
My peers care.
My children (now young adults) try to make some sense of what happened and I have always encouraged them to think for themselves and also do their research.
So many lives affected and lost.
There was fault on both sides.
A very very dark and difficult time.
So in response to your question, yes, in my opinion, I think YABU thinking there is no care. There are many, many decent people, whose voices you do not hear, save for replying to you on here, and I can understand why you would think no one cares though.

There is a lot of history to these events, and will take time to understand fully, if at all.
As with all things, the truth has many sides, and can be extremely difficult to get at, which is frustrating.
It’s certainly not true that only the IRA or the Republicans were to blame.

It’s shocking that police and state got involved with plenty of misdeeds, yet not surprising.
I’m ultra pissed off that Brexit happened, (never ask our government to do something, they will always half arse it or make a total mess and make things worse)
I just hope that the work of the GFA isn’t unraveled. It would be an utter travesty.
There is always hope.
As always, if tv is our only window on the world, we are very poor indeed.
I would say many people in the U.K. don’t think deeply or research further with regards to the issues you’ve mentioned. Life is messy for most people.
Priority lies with looking after children, relationships, older adults, paying bills, housework, working, etc etc.We’re trying to haul our arses out of this awful pandemic.
It’s not as simple as not caring OP.
There’s so much for every one of us to juggle.

Todays bbc in NI. Probably doesn't make the news on the 'mainland', but the impact of the terror the British army inflicted on the people (mainly nationalist) of NI (40 years ago) continues to be uncovered and us- the tax payer are continuing to pay for it.

Don't want any what about what the IRA did etc etc. this was state murder and harm. Those that were supposed to protect us.

Still going on

"Catholic worker receives £500k in British Army case - BBC News" www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-60391505

There seems to be so much emphasis on state involvement in the deaths.

Let’s not ever forget the atrocities of the IRA and how many people they murdered; including police, soldiers and civilians. All in the name of freedom

@Dollybirds

There seems to be so much emphasis on state involvement in the deaths.

Let’s not ever forget the atrocities of the IRA and how many people they murdered; including police, soldiers and civilians. All in the name of freedom

Surely there should be emphasis on state involvement in Deaths (a lot who were innocent of anything other than being Catholic Irish) The IRA are/were a Terrorist group, the state should-quite rightly-be held to a much higher standard, these are the people supposedly keeping the law and protecting it's citizens