To be cranky about the £150 council tax rebate

[Notcontent]

I have been thinking a lot about this. I understand that the government was looking for a way to implement help with energy costs in the easiest way possible and that doing it through council tax bands seemed sensible as for the most part it does target the right people. But only for the most part. For example, in London there are lots of people who live in high value properties that are actually far from luxurious and who will miss out. For example, my elderly neighbour will miss out even though he deserves the help. He doesn’t have a lot of money - bought his house decades ago when the area was very cheap and lives very frugally. I know councils will get some extra money to distribute but that will be for only a small number of people.

These kinds of injustices really get to me, as I think when it comes to public money everyone should get equal treatment.

I have a friend in a Band F property in London, single mum on low income and UC. She needs the rebate but wont get it because she lives in a fancy new build high rise in a Housing Association flat for half the commercial rent rates. There are council flats in the samw building with poor doors though who are likely in the same boat as their Bands also range from D-F. Bands are not a good way to work this out.

She is saving plenty more on rent. She is extemely lucky to have the flat on half the commercial rent.

I've not read all 9 pages of responses so someone may have already said this ...

I am disabled and on ESA (a legacy benefit that pre-dates UC) and PIP, as part of my weekly benefit amount, the DWP pays my Council Tax direct, so I know it gets paid but don't have to pay it from my available cash as such.

My understanding (from a couple of people I know who are on UC) is that they get their CT paid too but it's given to them to pay to the council.

Now, this £150 will be passed on to UC claimants because they'll see a reduction in what they have to pay for the 22/23 year, but those of us on legacy benefits won't see that reduction, the DWP will beneefit from it.

Also, another thorn in my side is that UC claimants last year got that temporary £20/week uplift in their payments, those of us on legacy benefits didn't and many of us actually get less than those on UC (especially as some of them are able to, and do, work). Someone on Twitter suggested that legacy claimants can apply to be moved onto UC and therefore not miss out on payments like this, I would say, who, on benefits (and maybe even those with jobs), has 5 or 6 weeks worth of cash sitting around, available to tide them over until their first UC payment comes in? Yes, they say you can have a loan but that still has to be paid back and when you've gone 5 or 6 weeks with no money how on earth can you pay back a loan?

So yes, there may also be people living in CT band E and above properties who don't have a lot of cash but they do at least have far more valuable houses and if they can't afford the CT on them, they do at least have the option to move into somewhere cheaper.

@Viviennemary

She is saving plenty more on rent. She is extemely lucky to have the flat on half the commercial rent.

No she is not saving anything because her rent is 65% of her income and then 50% of her income goes to childcare which means she is in the hole before she even receives UC.

The only reason the mention of her rent being subsidised is to explain she is in a high council Band, she is just the same as someone else renting the same size flat in another zone. If you know anything about social housing in those overpriced fancy London high rises you would know the fixtures are cheaper with worse materials and the use of poor doors and blocked access to amenities mean those in those flats are no better off than they woould be on a traditional council estate or low income area but because of the fancy address and judgements of the building (plus higher council tax) means people assume you are not in need when you are and are ungrateful/grabby when you ask for help you are entitled to.

To preempt your question or suggestion that she go live elsewhere, she was homeless with her children and in temp accommodation for 3 years prior - you don't say no to the council when they finally house you when council lists are 10-20 years long in some parts of London. The point is she and other social tenants qualify for their housing based on the fact that they are low income tenants- the rebate is meant to help those on low incomes, using Bands to determine need is not nuanced enough as they are many people living in social low income rented housing in high band flats through no fault of their own.

There will always be winners and losers. Life is never equal and we can never pit our income, outgoings, lifestyle, against others we think are in the same bracket/boat as us. There are things we will never know and the bits we do know and don't like, we have to hold our noses and suck up. No matter who's in government, there will be millions who don't agree with their policies or chosen ministers. I asked numerous times (on a certain website) 'Who and what do YOU suggest?' when posters decried the latest 'loans' and CT reductions along with other ministerial faux pas. Silence reigned. So I ask here, what do posters here think would be better, fairer or more acceptable than the 150 reduction in your CT?

The point is she is already been given a house at a large discount and also UC. I cant see any issue here at all.

Also subsidised rent just means bringing the rent down to the LHA or below which in some boroughs for a two bedroom flat can range from £1300 - £1600pcm, which is stretching it for most people, as a studio in these places can far range upwards of £1500 so is realistically the only way people can get housed as the rents are ridiculous.

They rarely see them either, families spread out for employment etc is not something limited to Londoners

It's not limited to Londoners - but they've been affected the most. By far. In London it's happening on mass. In the rental as well as buying sector. Which means the most vulnerable . Including disabled people and families with disabled children - the people who most need family, community, and support networks.

It's been going on for years and years, including London councils socially cleansing vulnerable families and individuals away from family, community, and support networks.

Nowhere in the UK has suffered worse than London.

London is the epicentre of the public health housing and homelessness emergency.

Two thirds of all homeless families in England are in London. A whopping majority.

And of course a vital point that can't be dismissed, is that if your family decide to move back home, they will be welcomed as returning locals. They will not face the hate and bigotry that Londoners face when priced out. (It's very easy to find just on MN alone, if you don't believe me).

It's not ok to happen to anyone or anywhere in the country but it cannot be denied that the problems is most acute in London. And has been for years.

council lists are 10-20 years long in some parts of London.

Yes. And many London councils won't let many people even join the list.

Now I know things are beginning to get bad in some other parts of the country as 'levelling up' happens. Manchester, for example is discovering the 'benefits' of 'investment pricing people away from families, support networks, and communities.

But there's still quite some catching up to get to London level of bad.

am disabled and on ESA (a legacy benefit that pre-dates UC) and PIP, as part of my weekly benefit amount, the DWP pays my Council Tax direct, so I know it gets paid but don't have to pay it from my available cash as such.

My understanding (from a couple of people I know who are on UC) is that they get their CT paid too but it's given to them to pay to the council.

@Harmonypuss A friend is on the same legacy benefits as you. She still has to pay some council tax. Her (London) council only gives a discount.

I think it varies across the country. DP has a cousin on UC, not in London and he too has to pay an amount.

I do know that both my friend and DP's cousin do feel the rebate will help them. Whilst still a drop in the ocean, paying even discounted rate of council tax when benefits can be a struggle.

^So yes, there may also be people living in CT band E and above properties who don't have a lot of cash but they do at least have far more valuable houses and if they can't afford the CT on them, they do at least have the option to move into somewhere cheaper.

Problem is many won't.

Many are too elderly and frail (physically or mentally) to move.

There is also the lack of accessible homes for disabled or elderly people.

And, whilst yes, social rent downsizers often get highest priority for rehousing (often above people trapped in flats in wheelchair when lifts break, and those fleeing domestic abuse.

But those in private renting it's a very different story. A far more miserable one. There's a serious shortage of landlords letting to tenants on low incomes especially benefits (other than illegal or should be illegal slum beds in sheds types).

This is, unsurprisingly, a particular problem in London, but it's a growing issue elsewhere too.

Obviously neglecting to include sufficient accessible and smaller homes in new build developments is one cause of the scarcity of suitable downsize homes.

But of course another major culprit is the dreadful 'bedroom tax', which has seriously depleted the supply of 1 and 2 bedroom homes.

Anyway, as always gold star ⭐ to that tried and tested old favorite. Divide and rule. Works a charm everytime. Well until, eventually, the divided equally fucked over groups finally work it out and realise strength in numbers.

The real answer to the cost of living crisis - for individual family benefit and the longer term national economy? That would be tackling the public health housing and homelessness emergency.

It's not just a matter of morals. It makes good economic sense.

The public health housing and homelessness emergency costs the taxpayer many many billions every year. Indirect and wide reaching indirect consequences.

Billions to house homeless families and vulnerable individuals in expensive but crappy temporary accommodation.

Billions in housing benefits for ever increasing high private rents.

And billions and billions and billions and billions on the impact of insecure or no housing.

It has (expensive) consequences affecting many public services. The NHS (including mental health), social services, criminal justice system.

People were concerned about the temporary Covid measures affecting children's education and life chances. The public health housing and homelessness emergency impacts heavily on a child's education and life opportunities.

We need to spend to save. Invest to longer term save.

We need a construction industry boosting mass social housing build and buy.

(And for those who want/are able to buy, there needs to be some relaxation of mortgage lender affordability criteria. The attention is often on deposit yet it's actually the minimum requirements that are the stumbling block for growing numbers. Of course we don't want s new subprime crisis but the pendulum has swung tok far in the other direction.)

Tackling the public health housing and homelessness emergency (including increasing availability of smaller, and mobility and other accessible needs suitable homes) is not a miracle panacea. It won't magically make everything alright...but my goodness it would make an enormous difference.

I mean to the NHS - because bad, insecure, or no housing is hugely damaging to physical and mental health. It's certainly one of the reasons why an increasing number of working age people are currently too unwell to work. Hence a bigger burden of cost for the NHS.

Likewise the burden of cost on other public services. Of course there will still be need but it would be less - and therefore lower demand for certain council tax funded services...

Stable affordable housing creates a more stable cohesive society. A more contented - and healthier one. Good for individuals, for families, and for the economy (and taxpayers).

Companies particularly small ones can only increase wages by so much before going bust. And anyway those wage rises won't be able to keep up with the spiralling housing market.

If people have affordable stable housing, there's more money for other essentials including food and fuel - and also, more chance of spare money to spend on the economy... which means fewer leisure, retail, and hospitality job losses.

Stable affordable housing creates a more stable cohesive society. A more contented - and healthier one. Good for individuals, for families, and for the economy (and taxpayers).

I'll shut up now. (Way past bedtime but I made the mistake of caffeine whilst staying up for a chat with family in Australia )

I'll sign off with something well worth remembering.

That altruism/morals was not the main reason why we created a welfare state - including social housing. It was self interest and economic good sense. Spend to save.

Huge numbers suffering increasingly desperate (physical or mental) deprivation costs the taxpayer many billions, but it can also eventually lead to dangerous instability. Or worse.

Here's to hope. Hope for a better fairer future where everybody, wherever they are in the country, can afford the essentials - housing, food, fuel, etc. - and even (gasp) some treats too...because there's a difference between existing and living. And because health is holistic - mental wellbeing affects physical health and vice versa.

Whether we'll see that as a reality, I don't know but it's a good one to dream of (and call for).

@Tealightsandd
But of course another major culprit is the dreadful 'bedroom tax', which has seriously depleted the supply of 1 and 2 bedroom homes
I don't understand how the bedroom tax affects this? Surely there are single people who would prefer a cheaper 1-bedroom home? Serious question, I'm trying to understand it all. Where I live just outside M25, we have massive home-building schemes but they are for either 3/4-storey flats (with no lifts) or family homes, no provision for the elderly wanting to downsize.

the DWP pays my Council Tax direct, so I know it gets paid but don't have to pay it from my available cash as such.

@Harmonypuss I have sympathy for your situation, but quite simply, if you don’t have to pay council tax or it’s paid for you, then you don’t need a council tax rebate.

I hope there will be other measures that you can benefit from to help with the rising cost of living, but the fact that this isn’t one of them doesn’t mean it shouldn’t exist.

It’s a bit hypocritical of you to flippantly say that people have the option of moving house right after saying you couldn’t possibly be expected to switch to UC because you’d end up with a loan to pay back out of your benefits. Do you really think that selling a house, buying a new one and going through all the stress of moving, especially alone and elderly, is an easier process than moving onto universal credit?

Again, it’s people who already get help from the state begrudging a much smaller amount of help to others who also need it.

OP, perhaps he needs to cut down on his visits to the garden centre and Waitrose? Much of the council tax bill will be spent on social care for elderly people, so he probably benefits more from council tax than young people paying huge rents/mortgages in his area anyway.

My concern is if the government are giving £150 to those households the already underfunded local councils will have a shortfall in their budget and services will be reduced further for the vulnerable , Education services , social services etc 😢

Equity release may be suitable for your neighbour to release some funds for him to live on, only drawback is the inheritance he leaves to family, friends or charities. Yes the council tax is not the right way to calculate what should be paid, but remember the Tories got burnt last time they tried to change it...... The tax needed should be collected and distributed nationally if we rally are serious on levelling up.

@lonelyapple

OP, perhaps he needs to cut down on his visits to the garden centre and Waitrose? Much of the council tax bill will be spent on social care for elderly people, so he probably benefits more from council tax than young people paying huge rents/mortgages in his area anyway.

How do you know he visits garden centres and Waitrose, I can't see that in the OPs posts, have I missed it? I'm retired and I have been to a garden centre once in the last 2 years, I went to meet someone for a coffee not to shop. I never go to Waitrose, firstly as we don't have one in my town and secondly when I went to one once when we were on holiday I wasn't very impressed. Do you just assume that is what the elderly spend all their time doing?

If you look at social care expenditure it is almost equal between under 65s and 65 and older. As people won't even be retired at 65 I think it is a bit of a fallacy that it is the retired who are benefiting from all the social care support.

@Username1951

Equity release may be suitable for your neighbour to release some funds for him to live on, only drawback is the inheritance he leaves to family, friends or charities. Yes the council tax is not the right way to calculate what should be paid, but remember the Tories got burnt last time they tried to change it...... The tax needed should be collected and distributed nationally if we rally are serious on levelling up.

I think alot of elderly people have been frightened off equity release as there were some dubious schemes a few years ago. I would like to take out a lifetime mortgage as I would feel more in control of it but my DH won't hear of it. He's older than I am, I'm late 60s and he's late 70s, and I do think that age comes into it, at my age I think the majority of pensioners are enjoying life and getting out and about, I'm still working, but ten years on I think alot of people are less able and a bit more nervous. Not sure how common that is but it is something I have observed.

@LethargicActress

the DWP pays my Council Tax direct, so I know it gets paid but don't have to pay it from my available cash as such.

@Harmonypuss I have sympathy for your situation, but quite simply, if you don’t have to pay council tax or it’s paid for you, then you don’t need a council tax rebate.

I hope there will be other measures that you can benefit from to help with the rising cost of living, but the fact that this isn’t one of them doesn’t mean it shouldn’t exist.

It’s a bit hypocritical of you to flippantly say that people have the option of moving house right after saying you couldn’t possibly be expected to switch to UC because you’d end up with a loan to pay back out of your benefits. Do you really think that selling a house, buying a new one and going through all the stress of moving, especially alone and elderly, is an easier process than moving onto universal credit?

Again, it’s people who already get help from the state begrudging a much smaller amount of help to others who also need it.

A very good post, considering various sides to this.

I do think this govt are doing a "divide and conquer" with organising things so that people are set against each other. It is very sad.

@Tealightsandd

council lists are 10-20 years long in some parts of London.

Yes. And many London councils won't let many people even join the list.

Now I know things are beginning to get bad in some other parts of the country as 'levelling up' happens. Manchester, for example is discovering the 'benefits' of 'investment pricing people away from families, support networks, and communities.

But there's still quite some catching up to get to London level of bad.

I live in the south west and it is a problem here, ironically with "rich" Londoners pricing out the locals. Obviously people can move but it is hard on local people.

The other pressure is the lack of opportunities for our young people, my 4 all went to universities and have good jobs in either their university city or in the city their partners come from. There just aren't the opportunities here. Locally the older people with children still local are in a minority among the people I know.

Council tax bands do need an overhaul but not based necessarily on property prices as some will have been in their house since 80s / 90s never moved but property prices have shot up and vast majority in my Borough would be on band g or h which considering we are band E and ours is £2430 per year we wouldn't manage as g is currently £3158.06. We are not well of we have just been lucky with strategic moves to enable good schools (of which is actually trust run not authority!)

Council tax is there to pay for
The Borough Council (would love to see the numerous pot holes fill as should be with the money!)
Town Council
Adult social care
Fire authority
Police services

So surely this is something that could be a set amount across the board for all as we all will use the services equally or maybe I'm being simplistic!