To be cranky about the £150 council tax rebate

[Notcontent]

I have been thinking a lot about this. I understand that the government was looking for a way to implement help with energy costs in the easiest way possible and that doing it through council tax bands seemed sensible as for the most part it does target the right people. But only for the most part. For example, in London there are lots of people who live in high value properties that are actually far from luxurious and who will miss out. For example, my elderly neighbour will miss out even though he deserves the help. He doesn’t have a lot of money - bought his house decades ago when the area was very cheap and lives very frugally. I know councils will get some extra money to distribute but that will be for only a small number of people.

These kinds of injustices really get to me, as I think when it comes to public money everyone should get equal treatment.

YANBU. Why shouldn't we have sympathy for that old chap, just because some are even worse off?

Has the OP said this persons house is worth £1million? I thought she’d said it wasn’t.

Band E In London doesn’t mean property worth a million.

Also not everyone owns their home so ‘just sell up’ isn’t necessarily an option.

The council tax banding system is nonsense. Identical homes on the same street have different bands.

Your elderly neighbour has been fortunate that his property has appreciated so much. I think there are far too many taxes on income and not enough on assets, council tax (and anything based on it) is therefore one of the fairest in my opinion.

@LethargicActress

YANBU OP.

I think I will benefit from this council tax discount so I’m not going to complain about about it, but reading some of the responses on here I find it sad that so many people are so small minded that they can’t find any sympathy for a single elderly man who is struggling with the cost of living just because he happens to own his house. In day to day life he’s no better off than if he lived in a council house that’s paid for by housing benefit. In fact he’s probably worse of as he doesn’t have a landlord to pay for any maintenance problems. It’s not that easy to just up and downsize, especially if you’re on a low income and don’t have help. People’s jealousy of him owning a house in London is completely misguided.

Sure he doesn't have a landlord to ay for his repairs, but maybe he could take it out of the rent he isn't paying?

Again, there are options for a single person with a massive asset, he can get a life time mortgage and release equity, he can move, he can get a lodger

Remind me again what Cheryl, the single parent on minimum wage, who pay astronomical rent can do to mitigate the price rises?

Notcontent Are you set to gain from his 1,000,000 house?

When the "bedroom tax" came in I remember lots of outrage about elderly people not being able to stay in their homes.

Now elderly people should "just move."

Is it jealousy that makes the difference. Nothing personal, my house is band E in quite a deprived area with high council tax.

@Bebethany

Notcontent Are you set to gain from his 1,000,000 house?

The op said it’s not worth a million.

@ancientgran it's not jealousy, its simple maths.

Coronavirus has cost the country dearly, the government has to have a cut off point for anything being handed out. Some comments are ridiculous like the government giving out free equity release .Council tax banding may not be perfect, but it's good for once to see something that acknowledges wealth that people have accumulated through property, rather than yet again basing it on income.

Targeting council tax payments is a gimmick. Local authorities have endured years and years of cuts via ever decreasing payments from central government. Coupled with this policy, the obligations on local government to provide social care services have increased. You can see where this is going? Impoverished councils will now become even more impoverished and then everyone blames ‘the bloody council’…I’m afraid this government couldn’t care less about poverty, hardship or the appalling destruction of social services, our underfunded schools and our hospitals. If they were serious about poverty Universal Credit wouldn’t have been slashed, and something would be done about VAT on fuel.

[quote rookiemere]@ancientgran it's not jealousy, its simple maths.

Coronavirus has cost the country dearly, the government has to have a cut off point for anything being handed out. Some comments are ridiculous like the government giving out free equity release .Council tax banding may not be perfect, but it's good for once to see something that acknowledges wealth that people have accumulated through property, rather than yet again basing it on income.[/quote]
There's lots of arguments about the money. That wasn't my point though. Why was it awful if elderly people in rented accommodation had to move because their benefits to help with rent was reduced but it is the thing elderly people in a house they own should do. The only difference I can see is people resent that this old man is living in a house that is worth alot of money but he is potentially just as short of money to live on as the person in rented accommodation.

If it is just fine for him to downsize (I would but my DH won't as he is older than me and can't face the disruption) why isn't it fine for someone in rented.

As I've said it doesn't affect me, I just think the difference in attitude is interesting.

It isn't a first for taking the value of property into consideration, ask any of the old people in care homes who have had to sell their home. Again I haven't got an issue with that, as someone with LPA for an elderly relative I'm happily spending over £6k a month for her care from the proceeds of her house and am glad we have the money for an excellent home but it isn't right to say that "for once" something acknowledge wealth accumulated from property.

Sure he doesn't have a landlord to ay for his repairs, but maybe he could take it out of the rent he isn't paying?

What if, like many pensioners, his basic pension wouldn’t cover rent and if he had rent to pay it would be covered by benefits. Your attitude comes across as so small minded.

Remind me again what Cheryl, the single parent on minimum wage, who pay astronomical rent can do to mitigate the price rises?

I expect she can’t do much more than John the pensioner can do to increase her earnings for the time being. We weren’t talking about increasing earnings though, we’re talking about a council tax rebate. Assuming both Cheryl and John live in a band A-D home and pay their own council tax, they can both benefit in exactly the same was as each other. As it should be.

The highest council tax is in Rutland at 2.5 x more than Westminster but these bands were set in 1991. House prices and other factors have changed so much since then. Crime, housing, immigration, schools, policing among many other pressures, have contributed to skewed house prices and consequently, council tax. Yesterday, I sent a request via the government website to ask for a review of my council tax, as I feel the banding is wrong.
They promise to respond in 2/3 days.

@LethargicActress

Sure he doesn't have a landlord to ay for his repairs, but maybe he could take it out of the rent he isn't paying?

What if, like many pensioners, his basic pension wouldn’t cover rent and if he had rent to pay it would be covered by benefits. Your attitude comes across as so small minded.

Remind me again what Cheryl, the single parent on minimum wage, who pay astronomical rent can do to mitigate the price rises?

I expect she can’t do much more than John the pensioner can do to increase her earnings for the time being. We weren’t talking about increasing earnings though, we’re talking about a council tax rebate. Assuming both Cheryl and John live in a band A-D home and pay their own council tax, they can both benefit in exactly the same was as each other. As it should be.

Small minded because I think if you have an asset you should use it.

Again, there are options for a single person with a massive asset, he can get a life time mortgage and release equity, he can move, he can get a lodger
I'll pop this here again, as you seemed to miss it when cherry picking from my post.

@MyrtleHope

Your elderly neighbour has been fortunate that his property has appreciated so much. I think there are far too many taxes on income and not enough on assets, council tax (and anything based on it) is therefore one of the fairest in my opinion.

Nope. The elderly person in a cheaper house price area is the more fortunate one. Because he gets to have something priceless.

His children and grandchildren weren't priced away from family, community, and support network. Lucky cheaper essential need (stable affordable housing) area old guy.

Like I say. Priceless.

@Appleseesaw - thank you for the information

[quote rookiemere]@Tealightsandd they don't need to move, they can do equity release on their property.[/quote]
Equity release is a huge rip off.

But also, why should the elderly person in a cheaper housing area get to leave an inheritance (to help their children or grandchildren possibly buy a stable home) but not the one in the area blighted by social cleansing?

And before you say the expensive housing area will be a larger inheritance, well it won't make any difference - because, of course, it costs so much more to buy a stable home in the inflated prices area.

Also forget inheritance. Many elderly need to keep equity in order to pay for care (and care homes are more expensive in London and the south east).

21:30SmellinOfTroy

LethargicActress

Sure he doesn't have a landlord to ay for his repairs, but maybe he could take it out of the rent he isn't paying?

What if, like many pensioners, his basic pension wouldn’t cover rent and if he had rent to pay it would be covered by benefits. Your attitude comes across as so small minded.

If basic pension doesn't cover the rent the LAs have the means to award housing benefit, as long as the property is not considered too large for the number of people. Usually, a 1 bed property for a single person or couple. There are ceilings as I'm sure you're aware.

A pp misunderstood my talk of slippery slope when I mentioned it the other day. They thought I was referring simply to council tax banding/size/price of home.

What I actually meant was the lack of compassion, empathy, and understanding of physical and mental health needs (eg. the priceless benefits of living amongst family, community, and support networks).

There has been a deeply unpleasant pernicious devaluing of elderly people in recent years.

Likewise the disabled. Next up refugees, and then single mums and/or larger families. Don't be fooled into thinking the Othering will stop there.

Slippery slope.

Meanwhile the reference upthread of (the failure to contain) SARS-COV-2 costing the economy. Well yes Long Covid will add an economic burden, but clearly there's money to be had for some things. Billions for furlough fraud and dodgy PPE, for example.

When the "bedroom tax" came in it didn't apply to those of pension age. It still doesn't, and there have been plenty of comments on here that people in their 70s with a three or four bedroom council house should move to allow for a family to move in to it.
My ex partners parents live in an ex pit village in County Durham. They can afford their home etc however their sons moved away for jobs to Yorkshire and Lancashire. They rarely see them either, families spread out for employment etc is not something limited to Londoners

If basic pension doesn't cover the rent the LAs have the means to award housing benefit, as long as the property is not considered too large for the number of people. Usually, a 1 bed property for a single person or couple. There are ceilings as I'm sure you're aware.

Yes, I’m aware. But as I was responding to the suggestion that a pensioner could spend money not being spent on rent, as in money that he doesn’t actually have, that bit’s not really relevant.

Small minded because I think if you have an asset you should use it.

He is using it. It’s his home that he lives in.

Again, there are options for a single person with a massive asset, he can get a life time mortgage and release equity, he can move, he can get a lodger
I'll pop this here again, as you seemed to miss it when cherry picking from my post.

Yes, there are options. But seriously, it’s ridiculous that a pensioner should have to leave his home, buy a mortgage or equity release or be forced to live with a stranger for the sake of a £150 council tax break that many people will benefit from at at time when everyone’s living costs are rising. You have to be a special kind of tight to resent this tiny amount of help.

OP if your close to your neighbour try and encourage him to apply to the council for any support, even offer to assist with this if u can. Sometimes it’s about knowing what’s out there and having the gentle support of someone rather than being proud. Worth a try!

Or, you'd have to be a special kind of mental to think there is even one person in the whole of the UK who will be facing penury/homelessness/straightened circumstances as a result of not getting a tax break on an asset they've had the benefit of owning for 41 fucking years ie almost half a century, having never previously had said tax break and done ok without it, and who is missing out because they live in a house that even in 1991 was worth more than at least 60% of the houses in their vicinity and now is likely worth around 500% more than even that.

Seriously, this entire thread is perching on cloud cuckoo land.

Do any of you even know how this shit works?

@HobnobsChoice

When the "bedroom tax" came in it didn't apply to those of pension age. It still doesn't, and there have been plenty of comments on here that people in their 70s with a three or four bedroom council house should move to allow for a family to move in to it. My ex partners parents live in an ex pit village in County Durham. They can afford their home etc however their sons moved away for jobs to Yorkshire and Lancashire. They rarely see them either, families spread out for employment etc is not something limited to Londoners

I think there were alot of scared people at the time. I remember them on here and people being scandalised at the idea they'd have to move. The old man in London has as much right to be attached to his home as anyone else. Just saying, "move" is strange if that isn't what is said to renters.

If it cheers you then just think of the inheritance tax when he no longer needs his home.