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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Should the monarchy end with this queen?

272 replies

ivykaty44 · 06/02/2022 08:30

YABU Charles will be the next king, we can’t pick and choose and the system should go on

YANBU the monarchy should end and we get to vote on a president in future

OP posts:
AuxArmesCitoyens · 07/02/2022 06:19

Well that's an unusual take.

Blueroses99 · 07/02/2022 09:37

@PerkingFaintly

If you want a different system, hammer out the details before committing to it.

Otherwise we'll be stuck with a much more serious version of, "I voted for a Brexit, but not THIS Brexit."

Realistically, given her age, it would wrong to bank on having the time to do that before the current Queen dies.

I agree with this. Would it be possible to abolish the monarchy overnight when we have a thousand years of laws and customs to unpick? It’s not just about royals deciding to step down or no longer being given money, there would need to be serious thought as to the new governing system, and it would probably take years to implement. Not to mention that the queen is also head of state in 14 other countries.

As for the ceremonial part of the role, it is part of British history and culture, would we really want to lose all of that.

Havanananana · 07/02/2022 09:41

No because they bring in so much money for the country.
We would all have to pay higher taxes if we didn’t have them.

Nonsense - as individuals they bring in little money. Tourists don't come to see the Queen - the vast majority of the British population have never seen the Queen and never will. Tourists flock to Versailles in France despite there being no royal resident for over 200 years and they actually get to walk around the palace - something that doesn't happen at Buckingham Palace, Sandringham or Balmoral.

As for paying higher taxes - those struggling to pay their energy bills will be thrilled to hear that the energy companies pay Her Maj many millions a year to locate their windfarms, cables and pipelines on "her" seabed off the coast of Britain. This money is paid to her, not to the government.

CathyorClaire · 07/02/2022 09:42

We would all have to pay higher taxes if we didn’t have them

Can you provide a link showing this?

NiceShrubbery · 07/02/2022 10:05

@CathyorClaire

We would all have to pay higher taxes if we didn’t have them

Can you provide a link showing this?

I wouldn't hold your breath but here are a few to show that claim is monarchist fantasy:

www.statista.com/chart/18569/total-cost-of-the-uks-royal-family-by-year/. Cost of sov grant only, not including security and all the rest of it.

www.getreading.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/how-much-money-royal-family-20757359
£19 bn from stuff and places "owned" by the RF that would quite happily continue generating revenue by themselves without 20 of the Windsors getting paid millions to pretend they're a tourist attraction.

People don't come to see the queen and her strange children. They come to see the history, those guys with the vile bearskin hats on, and visit tombs of already-dead monarchs.

MaggieFS · 07/02/2022 10:14

No. Their impact only my day to day life is negligible, but they bring in tourist dollars and funds for charities. They aren't perfect by a long shot, but as long as they are hard working, I am fine with it.

MarieIVanArkleStinks · 07/02/2022 10:24

@Mountainpika

Would we want to run the risk of having a president like Trump?
Yes. This is always the unpersuasive reason given for having an unelected Head of State foisted on us rather than one put in place by due democratic process.

He didn't perform up to par so the US electorate rejected him. That's how democracy should work. He claimed he'd 'won' the election regardless and at one point was refusing to leave the White House. There was, rightly, an outcry and a claim that his behaviour threatened the foundation of the US democratic constitution. He left. That's how democracy should work.

There is no point complaining about Elizabeth Windsor being 'above' the law, having her tax outgoings exempt from scrutiny and all their other finances kept secret, protecting her repulsive son from due legal process, the other repulsive son doing dodgy financial dealings and letting his 'trusted aide' fall on his sword when they come to light, if you support a dead-in-the-water, hereditary system which actively endorses such behaviour. And it does. The elite protect the elite, at seemingly any cost.

There's an argument as to whether the electorate should be 'trusted' with a vote. It's the same sort of argument used a century ago against votes for women and universal suffrage. A democratic vote is not just a courtesy, but a basic right of citizens of a modern democracy. Sure, the electorate often gets it wrong. We voted Thatcher and Blair into power for a decade respectively. We voted for Brexit. Incomprehensible, but the majority won. We won't always like the vote the majority deliver. That's how democracy should work.

LibrariesGiveUsPower · 07/02/2022 10:28

Are you really suggesting President Boris is a good idea?

MarieIVanArkleStinks · 07/02/2022 10:30

@MaggieFS

No. Their impact only my day to day life is negligible, but they bring in tourist dollars and funds for charities. They aren't perfect by a long shot, but as long as they are hard working, I am fine with it.
They're not hard-working. This isn't a matter of personal opinion: the court circular is available for anyone to read. And public 'engagements' frequently involve family celebrations and sporting events. This is not 'work'.

As to the argument that they bring in tourist revenue, this is completely unquantifiable, therefore meaningless. The top UK tourist destinations contain few Windsor-based or exclusively London-based destinations; that's even if you count the Tower of London. No one can weigh up what they supposedly earn against what they cost, with the very good reason that you and I are not allowed access to their finances. This is the only public-funded institution whose funding remains a secret from those who fund it. You don't know, because they don't want you to know.

sarahj90 · 07/02/2022 10:39

I would be happy for the monarchy to end with the Queen but am not keen on an American-style Presidency either. If someone can propose a credible alternative, I would be very interested.

NiceShrubbery · 07/02/2022 10:43

Are you really suggesting President Boris is a good idea?

Are you really suggesting there are no functional adults left in the UK who are able to make valid decisions?

Or just admitting that we live in a corrupt dictatorship and will have an incompetent scoundrel visited upon us anyway?

MarieIVanArkleStinks · 07/02/2022 10:50

@SantaClawsServiette

Empirically, constitutional monarchy is a good system. And I've never seen any evidence that trying to set up wholly new systems is likely to turn out better.

I think people often get caught up in objecting to it as elitist when in reality the real danger is from another quarter entirely, corporate capitalism. The monarchy is all tied up in ways that make it difficult to influence politics and create an ideal that it exists to serve, whereas modern capitalism is every bit as much about asserting power and privileged, but with no constraints on their power and with an explicit expectation that it be self-serving. It has far more influence on politics and economics, often in quite sneaky ways. And it's no more merit based than any aristocracy - it's robber barons unrestrained, as opposed to robber barons, tamed.

This is a very interesting argument, @SantaClawsServiette: a welcome and refreshing one on a thread full of shortcuts to thinking like 'they bring in tourist revenue!' and 'Do you really want President Blair?'

Corporate capitalism and neoliberalism are entrenched ideologies, partly courtesy of the likes of Thatcher, Reagan and Blair. The deregulation of the banks in the 80s cemented the power of the financial sector to the nth degree (for that we can thank Clinton, who started this and then we and other nations followed). The fiscal, corporate greed this led to is directly responsible for the likes of the Barings Bank collapse and the taxpayer bailout of Northern Rock. Incredible, isn't it, that people can fuck up on such a monumental scale, and whilst granted Nick Leeson served time for his shenanigans NR were richly rewarded for their mercenariness and incompetence.

This shit is what should be making people seethe, rather than worrying about what Harry (who sensibly left) and Meghan (who unlike the Windsors can boast a few active braincells) are up to.

Where we differ is that I see the whole of the elite political system (and that includes the Windsors) as the veins through which the blood of this corruption flows; aided by a partisan and powerful media. You can't separate the two. I'm not buying that the Windsors don't have undue influence. For one thing, read between the lines for more than five minutes and you'll clearly see the extent to which they are obviously in bed with the media. The unelected Head of State has a meeting with the elected PM each week, the contents of which we are not allowed to know. We're not allowed access to their finances. There are strings being pulled behind the scenes, or shenanigans like Andrew's would have come to light years ago.

Ousting the Windsors and the antediluvian House of Lords won't change such entrenched corruption overnight. The Lord Cashcrofts of this world will still be with us. But it would send something more resembling the right kind of social message. And it could, potentially, be the beginning of what's likely - as is the British way - to be a long, slow process of change.

That's how a system more properly resembling democracy would benefit the citizens of this country.

upinaballoon · 07/02/2022 11:35

@Babdoc

Mumoblue, we don’t “remint all the currency” for a new monarch! The old coins remain perfectly legal tender, we simply mint all future ones with the new king’s head on. It costs no extra per coin produced.
One day, before decimal coinage came in, a friend and I were in the queue in a chippie. She had a penny with Victoria on it, legal tender but quite old. We were so busy thinking about all the different people who'd handled it since it was minted that we got into trouble with the lady behind the counter, who was patiently waiting to serve us.Smile . "When you two have finished looking at your money.."
AuxArmesCitoyens · 07/02/2022 12:13

This looks like an interesting read on how the royal family manages its money and image: manchesteruniversitypress.co.uk/9781526158758/

LaChanticleer · 07/02/2022 15:29

Where we differ is that I see the whole of the elite political system (and that includes the Windsors) as the veins through which the blood of this corruption flows; aided by a partisan and powerful media. You can't separate the two. I'm not buying that the Windsors don't have undue influence. For one thing, read between the lines for more than five minutes and you'll clearly see the extent to which they are obviously in bed with the media. The unelected Head of State has a meeting with the elected PM each week, the contents of which we are not allowed to know. We're not allowed access to their finances. There are strings being pulled behind the scenes, or shenanigans like Andrew's would have come to light years ago

Totally agree with you here, and indeed there are many many examples of where various Princes and Kings have intervened, or tred to intervene.

Thank goodness Edward the Whatever abdicated - he was an overt supporter of Oswald Moseley & the German National Socialists.

Charles Windsor has intervened many times - he's really one of those letter-writers in green ink sort of people, from what one gathers of his interference.

And I know architects personally who have lost jobs when he has pronounced on various schemes. He can afford to pronounce; ordinary working professionals (with rather more qualifications than his mediocre Second) lost their livelihoods.

He talked about a woman of colour on his staff as "these people" when trying to block her promotion (against the laws of equality at the time).

The list goes on.

Charles Windsor is a huge risk as a monarch - he's intellectually mediocre, but arrogantly entitled. A disastrous combination.

Suzanne999 · 07/02/2022 15:45

Yes please. We don’t need them.

REPUBLICANRUBY · 07/02/2022 16:20

If you want to keep the monarchy, you have to accept that you have no say in who gets the top job next; it means you don't get to choose; that's what monarchy stands for. Luckily for us all, the queen's done pretty well. Otherwise we'd have had a rubbish head of state for 70 years, with no means of doing anything about it. So bad luck if you don't like Charles, if you think he just might not do it as well as his mum,you're stuck with him. If you want to be able to have a say in who becomes our head of state, you need a democratic system of election, not a monarchy. Can't have it both ways!

REPUBLICANRUBY · 07/02/2022 16:26

Mountainpika France and Ireland manage ok. In fct Ireland had 2 brilliant women presidents.

00100001 · 07/02/2022 16:28

@Lolabray

It’s an insult to Diana to say camilla should be a ‘queen’
..why? Confused

She wouldn't have been Queen... You know they divorced, right?

Gwenhwyfar · 07/02/2022 16:32

"Let's face it, what do they actually do? People would still come and visit the landmarks, but with more access, like the Palace of versaille."

Of course. France has the highest number of tourists in the world and no monarchy.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 07/02/2022 16:46

Charles Windsor is a huge risk as a monarch - he's intellectually mediocre, but arrogantly entitled. A disastrous combination

He also - like his brother - has an unfortunate liking for associating with paedophiles, but luckily for monarchists he's also getting on now so it won't be a very long reign

LampLighter414 · 07/02/2022 16:54

Time to get rid I think

DarkChocolateMint · 07/02/2022 17:16

@DorothyZbornakIsAQueen

The mo archive is such an antiquated concept. Inherited privilege is just wrong.

King's, Queens, Dukes, duchess, Lords, ladies, it all sounds so silly.

It wouldn't be half as bad if they were actually a noble family grateful for their inherited wealth.

What the fuck is a 70 odd year old king going to do for this country? Its embarrassing.

Let's face it, what do they actually do? People would still come and visit the landmarks, but with more access, like the Palace of versaille.

Down with the monarchy!!

Agree!!!!! Flowers
WomanStanleyWoman · 07/02/2022 20:59

Meghan (who unlike the Windsors can boast a few active braincells)

If only she’d used them to check basic facts regarding which royals are entitled to be styled as Prince or Princess before making a complete twat of herself on television. Or to work out that claiming in the same television interview that you ‘never saw your passport again’ after your marriage when everyone knows you flew to New York for a baby shower isn’t going to fool anyone.

Anonymouseposter · 07/02/2022 22:21

"wtf would a 70 year old king do for this country-it's embarrassing"
Perhaps whoever wrote that would like to explain what they mean and why it's embarrassing.
I am not particularly in favour of an inherited monarchy but a President wouldn't necessarily be any better (plenty of very bad examples across the world).
The Queen sees herself as serving the country and I think Prince Charles would view it the same way.