To think that JK Rowling is being vilified for standing for women and children?

[ExtraPlinky]

Getting sick of seeing her being torn down constantly on social media.
Her essays are thoughtful and careful and she's primarily concerned with safeguarding.

AIBU to say it's a witch hunt?

Aibu is just as robust as fwr. The only difference being on aibu you are not limited to the words you can use.

You have every word of the English language at your disposal, if you think my addressing your points is unfair debate then perhaps consider that your argument is poor.

Yep, this is AIBU. So everyone is answering your posts and telling you that YES, YABU!

You'd get a slightly different set of responses if we permanently forgot this was AIBU

And I don't think you're playing "fair", you're assuming a whole bunch of me despite the fact I have not said anything bad towards JKR, I have said I don't agree with the public bashing of anyone on any level and that in an ideal world it wouldn't happen. I have simply pointed out that yes, people who just say "don't like her" get met with the level and content of response as if they had called her a massive transphobe, when the same isn't done about pretty much any other celeb. Almost as if no one is "allowed" to have a negative opinion or share than negative opinion of her, because "she's done so much good" and that's a pretty dangerous road to go down.

@CosmosLily, if you think there is a serious issue at the moment about people feeling intimidated and silenced and unable to express their entirely reasonable personal dislike of JKR, why don't you start a new thread to discuss it?

. I have simply pointed out that yes, people who just say "don't like her" get met with the level and content of response as if they had called her a massive transphobe, when the same isn't done about pretty much any other celeb. Almost as if no one is "allowed" to have a negative opinion or share than negative opinion of her, because "she's done so much good" and that's a pretty dangerous road to go down.
And I am simply pointing out that I don't think that's what's happening.

It's also a dangerous road to go down where people can say they dislike someone and not expect to be asked questions as to why.

YANBU OP.

@WorriedMumsDontSleep

. I have simply pointed out that yes, people who just say "don't like her" get met with the level and content of response as if they had called her a massive transphobe, when the same isn't done about pretty much any other celeb. Almost as if no one is "allowed" to have a negative opinion or share than negative opinion of her, because "she's done so much good" and that's a pretty dangerous road to go down. And I am simply pointing out that I don't think that's what's happening.

It's also a dangerous road to go down where people can say they dislike someone and not expect to be asked questions as to why.

She's not a "celeb" she's an author.

Goodness me, this is the last time I'll try to participate in any type of debate that has anything mildly close to do with feminism or JKR on Mumsnet.

WorriedMum - Fully agree, they're both dangerous roads and thanks for stating what you were pointing out, that's made it clearer.

@CosmosLily

Goodness me, this is the last time I'll try to participate in any type of debate that has anything mildly close to do with feminism or JKR on Mumsnet.

WorriedMum - Fully agree, they're both dangerous roads and thanks for stating what you were pointing out, that's made it clearer.

Why? You've apparently identified a very serious issue in which righteous JKR detractors are being intimidated into silence. So start a thread about that.

I haven't seen anybody be abusive to you, but if you have, report the posts.

That's a shame Cosmos, I think it's good for people to be open to challenge and debate.

Fact is, whilst you might believe 99% of the haters of JK are in it because of some inane unnamed dislike, the reality is she's not that divisive a figure to attract such random vitoral. Apart from being female and understands the importance of sex based rights.

Why? Because things I've said have been taken out of context, assumptions have been made about me/what I've said. Even the latest post "Whilst you might believe 99% of the haters of JK are in it because of some inane unnamed dislike" where have I said or even eluded to that?! So my time is spent repeating myself again and again.

To be perfectly honest, the few times I have joined in a conversation on the Feminism and FWR boards and simply asked a question or stated that my opinion wasn't 100% the same as the majority, or questioned something someone said out of a desire to learn, I've been jumped on, my words twisted, taken out of context. Even recently, a random poster did a search history on me, took a post of mine on a completely unrelated thread out of context, posted one sentence of it and declared "that's not very feminist of you, is it?".

Those boards are a fantastic place for people who have been on them for 10 years or who have the debating skills of a lawyer, but for people like me who are simply keen to learn and get a bit involved, they're not welcoming at all.

@Gizacluethen

Threatening to rape and murder anyone is obviously vile.

I personally think she latches onto whatever "struggle" is going off into the world to stay relevant. But I wouldn't spit vitriol about it, alot of people are doing the same.

You might personally think that, but personally I came to the opposite conclusion. I think JKR stayed quiet as long as she could bear while the whole issue grew and grew, but finally and very bravely spoke out. She knew it would lead to trouble for her, she'd seen enough by then to know people lost their jobs, their good name, their livelihood for speaking up; she probably knew it wouldn't end with that one initial tweet and that she'd have to defend herself in an escalating situation of trouble, but still she waded in on the side of women and girls.

And that brought down the inevitable upon her and life for her will never be the same again. Her name among the young woke is spat out with contempt; to them it's a given she's a vile person who let slip her inner bigotry.

I'd stake everything that nothing could be further from the truth. That she considered the whole issue very thoughtfully, but then began to see someone like her weighing in on the side of women and girls could do so much good.

And what a price she's paid for it. How much it must have hurt to see those silly younger people who came to fame and fortune through her works, reject her so utterly?

@CosmosLily

DrSbaitso Then I'm sorry you haven't seen people give their explanations as to why they don't like her (outside of her stance on women's rights) as I've seen it plenty and they're all valid reasons to the person disliking her, doesn't mean anyone need agree with them, of course, but some do give their own reasons when asked. Again, this is outside of her women's rights stance that I'm talking about.

I personally dislike Tom Cruise, he annoys me whenever I see him on screen and he seems a very strange person wrapped up in a cult, yet whenever I express that online, I'm never met with angry messages, rather just people either speaking of their own dislike of him, or asking for more info because they're interested. Yet if I was to say I don't like JKR for whatever reason (outside of women's rights stance) then I would be vilified for that and called anti-feminist, I've seen it happen to people.

But that's a valid reason. As is disliking various celebrities (the Sussexes, Lewis Hamilton etc.) for the hypocrisy of preaching about the environment from the back of a private jet, or saying that you think the PM is a scruff or that the Leader of the Opposition is boring. Other people may not agree with those reasons but at least everyone should be able to respect that you've put some thought in. "I just don't like her" or "She's too big for her boots" beckon further explanation.

"Too big for her boots" is a rather telling turn of phrase. It has echos of the Harry Enfield parodies of what happens when a woman has an opinion of her own: "Women: know your limits!" etc.

@CosmosLily

Why? Because things I've said have been taken out of context, assumptions have been made about me/what I've said. Even the latest post "Whilst you might believe 99% of the haters of JK are in it because of some inane unnamed dislike" where have I said or even eluded to that?! So my time is spent repeating myself again and again.

To be perfectly honest, the few times I have joined in a conversation on the Feminism and FWR boards and simply asked a question or stated that my opinion wasn't 100% the same as the majority, or questioned something someone said out of a desire to learn, I've been jumped on, my words twisted, taken out of context. Even recently, a random poster did a search history on me, took a post of mine on a completely unrelated thread out of context, posted one sentence of it and declared "that's not very feminist of you, is it?".

Those boards are a fantastic place for people who have been on them for 10 years or who have the debating skills of a lawyer, but for people like me who are simply keen to learn and get a bit involved, they're not welcoming at all.

Credit us with a little intelligence. We can read your posts, we can read the responses. Credit us that if people really are accusing you of things you never said (oh, the irony!), we will be able to tell that from your posts, as we can see those too.

I recounted an exchange on an old thread the other day. Someone replied to say that she remembered the exchange, and posts had "definitely" not been made in the order I described. They "definitely" had, and I pulled up the thread so people could see for themselves. Poster blustered a bit and then came up with some other stuff that also didn't happen. Thread's there for anyone who wants to check.

But I accept it must be frustrating to be judged constantly on stuff you didn't say...

I've been jumped on, my words twisted, taken out of context

Not exclusive to fwr. Very aibu trait.

And the reason it may feel like a more one sided pile on is because everyone on fwr will be looking at it from a feminist pov. If you march on their with a half baked idea without thinking of the implications for women, they're going to tell you them, aren't they. They don't sit around going oh you're pro sex work is work, yay surrogacy, you go girl.

There are very little places on Mumsnet you won't have your views examined. Even suggesting skinnies are in on style and beauty can feel intimidating.

Those boards are a fantastic place for people who have been on them for 10 years or who have the debating skills of a lawyer, but for people like me who are simply keen to learn and get a bit involved, they're not welcoming at all.

Stick around, learn those skills. Have at it! It doesn't really mater, given that this is an anonymous board. You can just take a run at it and change your name when you feel the one you are using has been 'burned'.

I did! I flung myself wholeheartedly into discussion, all bluster, little elan. I got my arse handed to me on any number of occasions. I would stop posting, digest what had been said, and come back, new understanding of myself, the forum and a brand new username .

I imagine, from what pother posters have said, many others have done the same.

Use this place in as many ways as you can. I can't think of anywhere else that allows such a wide range of debates, learning opportunities, support, general silliness and STILL manages to remain relatively sane and pleasant!

DrSbaito - I really don't understand how any of that is relevant to my post? No, I genuinely didn't say I believe 99% of the haters of JK are in it because of some inane unnamed dislike... but the way the poster is writing is as if I do believe that - Fact is, whilst you might believe 99% of the haters of JK are in it because of some inane unnamed dislike

So their argument is going off of something I didn't say or allude to, so what other choice do I have but to respond "I didn't say that?!". It's just constant going round in circles.

She speaks for me and I stand with her. Her support for the rights of women is nothing short of incredible. She supports transwomen too and their right to safety but doesn't confuse that with women's right to single sex spaces. She is heroic.

Like a PP, it was the uproar in response to her perfectly sensible essay that highlighted the danger of the TWAW ideology to me. I will go to my grave defending women's rights to single sex spaces and safeguarding from male violence.....the rape and death threats JKR has received only highlights to me EXACTLY why this is so important.

Samphire - But those conversations make me feel like utter shit. I end up sitting there having been piled on by a bunch of posters, some of whom have been downright nasty, having not learned a damn thing because hardly anyone is willing to have a conversation. It's all a "debate" and analysis of everything everyone says in every post (and whilst that's great if you've been there for 10 years, it's not good for learning).

If I (or others) dare to say anything about people being really fucking rude for no reason, we're told to shut up because "women are tired of being kind, are you telling me to BE KIND" and I'm kind of like no, I'm asking you to be respectful and not be a dick. No, it's not constructive for learning, trust me, I've tried time and time again and I'm just so beyond it, I can't get "in" at all despite constantly issuing disclaimers on all my sodding posts to avoid the conflict of people assuming I mean something else. I'm tired of it.

@CosmosLily

DrSbaito - I really don't understand how any of that is relevant to my post? No, I genuinely didn't say I believe 99% of the haters of JK are in it because of some inane unnamed dislike... but the way the poster is writing is as if I do believe that - Fact is, whilst you might believe 99% of the haters of JK are in it because of some inane unnamed dislike

So their argument is going off of something I didn't say or allude to, so what other choice do I have but to respond "I didn't say that?!". It's just constant going round in circles.

Ok, maybe I wasn't clear.

You seem to have identified an issue in which people who have a perfectly reasonable dislike of JKR are being intimidated into not expressing it. I'm suggesting that you start a thread about it if you want to discuss it, because it doesn't come over well in a thread about people whose dislike of her is violent minded, misogynistic and threatening.

You're worried about having your words twisted etc. (The irony.) I'm saying that while this might happen, your posts will be there for all to see, and I do believe that even the most facetious of us will be able to tell if you're accused of saying things that you really, absolutely, definitely did not say or imply. Right now, by obsessing with all the really good reasons to dislike JKR on this particular thread, you're making implications.

I'm not telling you to shut up. I'm suggesting that you start a new discussion where you have a bit more control over the context of discussing this issue you appear to have identified.

some of whom have been downright nasty

Have they?

DrSbait - Thanks for clarifying, I genuinely didn't get what you meant and thought your suggestion for making a new thread was a disguised "fuck off". I do realise that this isn't the place for this conversation and have stated it a couple of times, as well as apologised for bringing it up here. As this was posted in AIBU, it was more a passing thought that I thought would be interesting to have a conversation about, so I really don't feel strongly enough about it to start a thread. As I said, I wouldn't have posted if this was in FWR.

Ddraig - I'm talking about in the Feminism section, not on this thread. I have had people in the Feminism section be very nasty to me in the past yes, I have also seen it being done to others. Not for saying anything nasty/untrue/accusatory or anything like that, simply for posting on a subject I/they weren't 100% knowledgable on, for asking someone to stop responding so aggressively to them, for asking a question or for questioning what someone else said. If you've never experienced that then I'm very pleased for you, but I unfortunately have a few times.

I literally don't know what point you are trying to make then. As I understood it, you think lots of people dislike JK Rowling because of ERM, reasons and are afraid to voice them.

I'm just of the opinion that if you are going to negatively slate someone, a few words of explanation are reasonable. Just as you did for Tom Cruise.
And yes, I imagine that it would go down like a lead balloon on a Tom Cruise appreciation thread. But at least you'd be able to defend your view.
And the statistic of 99% was used btw because you seem to think this is a common problem. It's not meant to be read as an actual statistic, just to express my disbelief that that many JK Rowling critics who are unable to go their opinion and reasons exist.
I work in education and usually most people can use because adequately by age eight.

@CosmosLily

Samphire - But those conversations make me feel like utter shit. I end up sitting there having been piled on by a bunch of posters, some of whom have been downright nasty, having not learned a damn thing because hardly anyone is willing to have a conversation. It's all a "debate" and analysis of everything everyone says in every post (and whilst that's great if you've been there for 10 years, it's not good for learning).

If I (or others) dare to say anything about people being really fucking rude for no reason, we're told to shut up because "women are tired of being kind, are you telling me to BE KIND" and I'm kind of like no, I'm asking you to be respectful and not be a dick. No, it's not constructive for learning, trust me, I've tried time and time again and I'm just so beyond it, I can't get "in" at all despite constantly issuing disclaimers on all my sodding posts to avoid the conflict of people assuming I mean something else. I'm tired of it.

Shout FUCK OFF at the screen, have a gin, move on!

And sometimes 'nasty' is more 'unrelenting'.

The "Be Nice" thing is something I think every woman needs to understand. It isn't the same as being respectful of other people it is a demand that, as a woman, we have a different onus placed upon us, to be the one that acquiesces, doesn't rock the boat, doesn't say "fuck off". It is all those female socialisation things. rather than an interpersonal communication thing.

So stop issuing disclaimers, that's your female socialisation showing. Just say what you think. See every 'robust' response as a challenge rather than something personal - or just laugh, shout "fuck off" at the screen and move on.

It's all a "debate" and analysis of everything everyone says in every post (and whilst that's great if you've been there for 10 years, it's not good for learning) So maybe try hitting it it all head on, knowing that is what you are doing. Don't take anything personally. It's experiential learning, flooding - and many other flummery names.

But mostly remember, most posters in AIBU and FWR in particular, enter into those spaces FOR debates. FWR is really big on analysis at the moment, because of the legal attack on women's rights it has to be. None of the back and forths are personal, they can't be, we don't know each other. They are simply responses to a toneless written word. Remembering that has helped me not bite, a little!

Samphire - I do understand the whole be kind thing, I just really think that some posters use it as an incentive to be really really awful. I'm not asking for people to be kind to me, I'm just asking for them to show me the same respect I show them, but as soon as I ask that, I'm met with "don't tell me to be kind" so I feel completely stuck. I don't want to fight with people on the internet, I want to learn and have conversations.
I've no issue with my arguments being blown out of the water, but I just don't see how they can blow arguments I haven't even made out of the water, whilst referring it all back to me and then having lots of other people pile in. That's why I use disclaimers, so that hopefully they won't assume what I mean and will indeed get straight to the point of what I'm asking, without analysing everything else that comes before it. But, it doesn't work, so I don't really know what to do.

Thanks for all your advice, really, I just really don't think I'm strong enough for it all.