To think doubling the price will mean the group closes?

[NotMuchNotice]

A small problem granted but I'm wondering if it's reasonable to think this is exactly what will happen?

I've attended a toddler group with my child since last September when it started running. It's held in community building so doesn't actually cost those running it anything for the space and they have been fortunate to get lots of toys and resources donated however despite this I appreciate there is the cost of the time given by those volunteering to run the group.

The group costs £2.50 per child and whilst lovely it's never been exceptionally popular, most weeks they have between 10-15 people. This is likely because it's quite a deprived area and there are many groups here that run for free or a very nominal donation supported by lottery funding or local support services. This group is probably one of the most expensive of its type in the area but I like the atmosphere, those running it are lovely and so I've no problem paying.

However this morning out of the blue we've received an email saying the price is doubling to £5 per child starting immediately with tomorrow's session. I really want to support the group and to help it keep running but am really surprised at such a huge increase in price and can't help feeling that this is going to mean tomorrow's group is probably going to be the last one. Am I being pessimistic or would you feel the same?

Grants and trust are there to advance the Christian faith, so it is difficult to see how a toddler group would be able to compete for these limited funds.

Is it run with the expectation that it will eventually be a paid, low-hours job for the organiser, or is it run by parent volunteers?

If none of the attendees ever volunteer (either they don’t offer or are not asked to), then I’d assume the intention is for it to make a modest profit for the organiser. So it’s a business who should be looking at how much people will pay for the service.

If it’s parent-volunteers then they’re likely to be trying to have a “cushion” for times when numbers are low, or don’t want to fundraise, or have no clue what people can / will pay.

I’d not shell out £5 for a toddler group!

My comments on grants have all been based on the OP’s comment that the group isn’t a church group (no bible stories or obvious links). Just that one or two people involved are linked to the church

Were those grants for specific projects though @JustLyra? I've looked for help with general running costs so that we could subsidise membership fees etc for the junior members of our club but have had no joy. If I'd wanted to buy equipment or team kit, there were multiple possible sources but as Porcupine says we've found no-one who will help us with normal running costs - that has to come from the members, either via weekly subs or fundraising events. We've actually had to think twice about a recent equipment purchase because whilst we'd get grant funding for the initial outlay, there'd be significant ongoing running costs that weren't covered and we would have struggled with after the first year.

@MrsAvocet

Were those grants for specific projects though *@JustLyra? I've looked for help with general running costs so that we could subsidise membership fees etc for the junior members of our club but have had no joy. If I'd wanted to buy equipment or team kit, there were multiple possible sources but as Porcupine* says we've found no-one who will help us with normal running costs - that has to come from the members, either via weekly subs or fundraising events. We've actually had to think twice about a recent equipment purchase because whilst we'd get grant funding for the initial outlay, there'd be significant ongoing running costs that weren't covered and we would have struggled with after the first year.

Both. Generally it’s the running costs that we apply for because we have enough equipment now that we just replace things as and when.

The bulk of our funding is for room hire, travel expenses, training, insurance (though I will say I know the council have cut the funding for this right down and I haven’t started the new funding hunt yet), then things like snacks (healthy eating/obesity is the one to go down with that) and other consumables.

I’m on a train so I’m thinking off the top of my head, but to give an example - we charge £1 a day for afterschool club (with exemptions for parents who can’t afford it) and £10 a week for 3 hours a day playscheme in the holidays.

Don’t get me wrong - the week before funding runs out we’re counting the pennies, but it’s how we run.

I have a funding spreadsheet with organisations listed that our lovely secretary pulls together. I’ll ask her if she’s ok with me sharing it on and if she says yes I’m happy to pass it on.

She’s our genius at picking up on “x are promoting funding for y”. She finds them and I apply.

Is it run with the expectation that it will eventually be a paid, low-hours job for the organiser, or is it run by parent volunteers?

Honestly I couldn't tell you with 100% certainty. One of the people running it is also a parent but I don't know if any of them are actually paid.

Thanks JustLyra that would be great if it's possible. We have found that every fund we have approached have only offered funding for very specific projects which is not what is always needed. I can understand their perspective but I don't think its always the best thing. But I'm derailing the thread so I'll shut up!

Having worked in a church office where rooms were hiring out, it's reasonably likely that even if they have "links" to the church they may well be paying room hire.

Every man, cat and dog thinks the church "should" give them rooms for free or next to free.
They're either "doing it for a good cause", "it'll be good advertising for you" or "supporting a charity" or "links to the church."
"Links to the church" means anyone with any tentative reason. Such as fifteen years ago they helped serving refreshments at an event, or their next door neighbour assured them that if they said they knew him they'd get it for free because their uncle had their funeral there, or (an old favourite) "the minister said they could definitely have it for free."
I'll also say that the groups who have it for free are also far more likely to take the micky with damage, going over hours, using things without asking etc.

I'd guess that either the church has significantly put the prices up, because they've kept them low for ages and now they can't afford to.

Or the leaders, have been told that they have to pay now. Whether that's because they now aren't really connected to the church, or whether they're causing issues, or whether the church is just in a financial position that they need to ask for payment.

Thing is, if you have a group in a room for free it is costing the church. Lighting, heat, toys, cleaning, disposal of nappies etc. Plus you also have that being there you are stopping another group coming and paying.

You also have the situation that if they've split from the church, having been affiliated with them, they will need their own liability insurance. Another thing that isn't cheap!

Well said, Margaret.

@JustLyra there is no way Children in Need will fund a generic parent and toddler group.
The Lottery will give grants for specific vulnerable groups e.g. mums referred by HV at risk of postnatal depression.

Google Magic Little Grants - £500 - an independent parent and toddler group would get that.

Most parent and toddler groups that need to subsidise the cost do fundraising.

I deal with the Lottery a lot. It will not fund the running costs of a common or garden toddler group. In order to draw down funding for that youd have to wrap it all up in a parcel of wider delivery for a target group and the amount if work to even put a bid together would be massive, certainly far, far too much for a group of volunteers who only want to give a couple of hours a week.

Tesco's are a possibility but certainly round here the projects that are most selected are those which have tangible outputs - new play equipment etc

Gregg's I dont know about.

But again, this is all work. And there seems to be an assumption that there is someone willing to do it.

Yes agreed it is all work.
It is also not unusual for a tiny group with a constitution not to have the formal meetings they are legally supposed to have. If you have been running for a while and everyone knows what they are doing, they may not want to give up extra time for formal meetings that no one except the volunteers has ever come to.
I have done a lot of volunteering, and generally people are very quick to tell you what you should do, but very reluctant to actually do what they are suggesting themselves.

The thing is, the limited team of people involved may be good at, say, running a group operationally but crap at communication / financial management / understanding the demographic they serve etc.

Yes, to answer your OP, if there are other options available locally, the area is deprived, the group is nothing special, this group will close.

The church nearest me does a lovely playgroup 2x a week and hosts after school activities, and nary a mention of the big guy. Though TBH if you'll entertain my toddler for 2 hours on a rainy Monday for £3 you can go ahead and sing about Jesus if you like.

I think it's outrageous charging that, but...I used to run a toddler group. I got the hall free, the toys were donated, but I would have to get there an hour before to set it all up, stay an hour after to put it all away, and feed both me and my child while there, so it cost me four hours of my time and £10 each week. I ran it for over six years but got really fed up by the end as it was costing me so much just to run it for other people.
We did get donations from some people which I used to buy more toys, but never very much and not enough to even cover my costs of being there.

@EL1984

I think £5 is a bargain!! The two toddler groups we go to are £18 per time and £30 per week for a swimming lesson 😅 no biscuits or tea st any of them.

I would also say 15 kids is quite a lot to attend, especially in covid times when everything has been restricted in numbers for some time.

£5 is worth it to get out of the house and provide some entertainment for them, especially in winter.

Again, not everyone can afford £5 a week!

I’m not getting into specific debate with people but the funders I mentioned funded our toddler group until it closed (there is now free ones a couple of days in a new children’s centre).

I also didn’t say it wasn’t hard work to find, apply and organise. As the one who has done it for the groups I mentioned I’m well aware of that - however it came up because the OP (and another poster for another group) said she was willing to do stuff.

After what I received in PM I won’t be contributing further, but if OP, or anyone, wants to chat about funding applications or the differences in applying to the ones I mentioned feel free to message me.

All of their sites tend to have details of current or past applicants as well and those are very helpful for ideas of what groups asked for and how they sell themselves.

I thought you were being very helpful @JustLyra. Interested to know what someone can have sent by PM.

My mum used to run the one at my old primary school for years as a volunteer. Monday morning during the day in the hall so no room hire needed.
They had donated toys mostly. I think she used to have donations for money. Which covered a slice of toast for all of the toddlers and drinks/ biscuits for parents.

It was during term time only but they did occasionally meet up during the holidays and go to a proper indoor play area or the park (depending on the weather).
As it was already at school they also spent time with the teachers in reception alongside the parents

(The parents did also go out out for a Christmas night out)

I bet it was an increase in the hall hire. We used to have a church-based toddler group that was £2 a week (more recently went up to £3) but that was run by church volunteers, the vicar dropped in to chat and lead a short kid-friendly service at the end, there were prayers, Bible story and some singing along with the usual toddler group craft, painting, toys etc. The £2 covered the cost of tea/coffee/juice/biscuits/cake plus cleaning materials. Volunteers helped out with the refreshments and cleaning.

Otherwise, a toddler group run by anyone else would pay to hire the hall (at about £15 per hour for the 'charity' rate, often £20-25 for the usual rate). Two hours for toddler group plus at least 30 mins either side for setting up/putting away/cleaning meant paying for at least 3 hours hire a week at a cost of at least £45. So that cost has to be covered, plus the refreshments etc. Bear in mind that utility costs are going through the roof and I imagine the church has had to increase hall hire costs to cover the energy bills.

That's why the baby classes are so expensive because they're paying to hire the space, plus the person running it does it for a job.

If the group is run by volunteers, their time does not cost anything, but there will be the cost of disclosures, and very likely venue costs to cover cleaning and energy - both of which have increased dramatically. There may also be a paid co-ordinator. At the end of the day, nothing costs nothing but sounds like their communication needs to improve.

I run a play group, the maximum we can fit in our hall is 18children. We run with volunteers and parents that help set up and tidy up. We have a suggested donation of £1 per family, some dont pay some pay more. We offer 45muns of free play, then they have a snack of fruit with either juice or water in the room to the side of the hall. Then they play for a few mins while we clear away snack and set up for story time. While in the story a few tidy up all the toys and set up 3craft tables for when story is finished. Then its songs and bubbles. We are oversubscribed and have a waiting list. We are connected to the church so dont pay to hire the hall, but saying that all the money we make goes back in to the group or childrens community projects like holiday clubs.

I used to volunteer at a similar group and we paid £10.00 per hour or part therof for the heavily subsidised council owned hall. We paid for cleaning products, updates of toys and equipment, refreshments, insurance and bus fares for the volunteers. We charged £2 per child and it often didn't break even so the council was kept on the long finger for their room hire bill.
You say "I wpuld happily have provided snacks on a rota, volunteered to help set up or clear away etc but paying 20 quid a month to sit in a church".What we found was most people never actually volunteered to help. Many of said them we shouldn't buy toys as they would donate them but safe toys never found their way to us somehow.Perhaps now's the time to volunteer and contact your local council to see if there are any grants.

Ask why they are doubling the cost. It maybe that there is now a cost for the hall due to COVID! Most people expect that Third Sector orgs will provide services for very little but people still need paid, even volunteers have expenses. And things like insurance has gone up. But ask the questions, then see if you want to support your community or want to be mean and then have to pay a lot for other nursery services!!