To think doubling the price will mean the group closes?

[NotMuchNotice]

A small problem granted but I'm wondering if it's reasonable to think this is exactly what will happen?

I've attended a toddler group with my child since last September when it started running. It's held in community building so doesn't actually cost those running it anything for the space and they have been fortunate to get lots of toys and resources donated however despite this I appreciate there is the cost of the time given by those volunteering to run the group.

The group costs £2.50 per child and whilst lovely it's never been exceptionally popular, most weeks they have between 10-15 people. This is likely because it's quite a deprived area and there are many groups here that run for free or a very nominal donation supported by lottery funding or local support services. This group is probably one of the most expensive of its type in the area but I like the atmosphere, those running it are lovely and so I've no problem paying.

However this morning out of the blue we've received an email saying the price is doubling to £5 per child starting immediately with tomorrow's session. I really want to support the group and to help it keep running but am really surprised at such a huge increase in price and can't help feeling that this is going to mean tomorrow's group is probably going to be the last one. Am I being pessimistic or would you feel the same?

Why would nicely worded emails help?
If the church has increased rent, the cost to parents increases. If parents can't or won't pay, it folds. That is how it works.
With rising fuel bills all groups that are not subsidised will see a rise in charges.

@ADisgruntledPelican

This is a perfect example of why running voluntary community groups is such a thankless task. Everyone feels entitled to complain but has no motivation to get involved.

And fwiw most Church halls charge for hire even to people involved in the Church because tbh they are the people who tend to use Church halls.

Yet many church halls don’t charge remotely high rates, if at all, to toddler or baby groups as they are one of the few groups that use them in the morning.

Volunteer groups can be a thankless task but not because people question doubling the price with one day of notice and no explanation…

I can quite imagine that some churches will be putting up (or introducing) hire fees, partly because of the impending rise in heating costs, and partly because they may be struggling financially altogether - they are likely to have lost hire/events income over the last couple of years, and probably donations/regular giving as well. Some of the funds set up to help venues that had lost income weren't available to churches.

I think £5 is a bargain!! The two toddler groups we go to are £18 per time and £30 per week for a swimming lesson 😅 no biscuits or tea st any of them.

But what are you actually getting for that £18? The must be more expensive than a couple of hours actual childcare in a nursery.
Not a toddler group where mums help out.

Op they'd be as well to move to a softplay, they quite often do discounts for preschoolers off peak.
I think £5 is a lot for a toddler group

@Monopolyiscrap

It sounds like the issue is low attendance though. So sad as it is, if not enough people want the group, it will close.

15 paying children at a group isn’t low attendance. Especially when they charge full price for babies.

They’ll have less now at £5 a head

@lanthanum

I can quite imagine that some churches will be putting up (or introducing) hire fees, partly because of the impending rise in heating costs, and partly because they may be struggling financially altogether - they are likely to have lost hire/events income over the last couple of years, and probably donations/regular giving as well. Some of the funds set up to help venues that had lost income weren't available to churches.

Most of them round here have been smart enough to realise that pricing groups out of using their halls would be counter productive.

The council however, now they’re a different story. They’re going with one price across the board now - so toddler groups and scouts have to pay the same as the boot camp guy who is charging people £25 a session. And yet they’re surprised that their daytime keys are all decamping to churches…

To be honest whether or not they pay for the space isn't really relevant surely.
How can it not be relevant? If they have to cover say £50 hall fees, who is going to subsidise the shortfall?
Maybe they started off anticipating numbers would rise - who knows?
It does seem bizarre to attempt to introduce such a huge increase without any explanation.

@EL1984

I think £5 is a bargain!! The two toddler groups we go to are £18 per time and £30 per week for a swimming lesson 😅 no biscuits or tea st any of them.

I would also say 15 kids is quite a lot to attend, especially in covid times when everything has been restricted in numbers for some time.

£5 is worth it to get out of the house and provide some entertainment for them, especially in winter.

I'm sorry. WHAT?!

I raised my DS in London and would never have paid more than a fiver for a group, ever.

Our local one was £1 per child, they’ve now upped it to £2 per child, a compulsory snack which is £1.50 per child and we’ve all been out on a rota to set up, prepare the snacks, clean and take everything down.
It’s went from a lovely cheap morning out if we have no other plans to a £7 cleaning expedition.

We’ve stopped going 😂

I’d email for clarification of the price hike as like other have said - There’s a lot ‘better’ activities you could do for that price!

So I emailed and we've had a response saying that upon reflection and after numerous responses they are going to increase the fee to £3.50.

There was still no reasoning within the email for the sudden rise in cost but obviously I wasn't the only one who felt an increase up to £5 was too much.

@BlowDryRat

Even if they aren't paying rent there's heating, electricity, expenses for the helpers (assuming volunteers) you are not realistic about how much it costs to just have toddler group. We own the hall and at £1.50 we break even, if we had to rent it would be £34.50 just for the rent of the hall!

Most groups are 50p or £1. The most expensive I went to for £1.50 per child and 50p for adult but has bouncy castle and bouncy slide and some vvv posh toys. No one in their right mind pay £5. If I paid that much I'd go to a play class like messy play or forest school. Yanbu. I suspect there be very few going now

[quote gogohm]@BlowDryRat

Even if they aren't paying rent there's heating, electricity, expenses for the helpers (assuming volunteers) you are not realistic about how much it costs to just have toddler group. We own the hall and at £1.50 we break even, if we had to rent it would be £34.50 just for the rent of the hall![/quote]
You have heating and electric costs because you own the hall, most groups don’t have that.

And most volunteers at a toddler group won’t be getting expenses - reimbursed for buying snacks/drinks at most. They can’t claim expenses legitimately for many things (that’s not to say many don’t, but legitimately they can’t).

If there are so few people attending anyway how many are volunteers? I suspect they don't pay to attend because they volunteer to run it which means there are even fewer contributing to running expenses.

@NotMuchNotice

So I emailed and we've had a response saying that upon reflection and after numerous responses they are going to increase the fee to £3.50.

There was still no reasoning within the email for the sudden rise in cost but obviously I wasn't the only one who felt an increase up to £5 was too much.

It’s very random that they’ve still not explained the reason for the cost hike.

And if they were expecting 15 children to pay £5 and can now drop it to £3.50 they’ve not explained what they’re going to do to cover the £22.50 difference they needed this morning.

Do they have a committee? Committee meetings or anything like that?

I used to run one that was £2.50 and the breakeven point several years ago was around £45.

The 45 included £20 to hire the hall, craft materials, snacks, wear and tear, insurance.

The attendance used to vary wildly from week to week and it would go from being really quiet to building and getting busier. Then it would get really really busy one week and then drop right down again (presumably because everyone had found it being rammed a totally hellish experience so didn't fancy a repeat). We used to have to try and predict this pattern

What I find odd OP is that they haven't explained why the price has gone up and then they've changed their mind without explanation.

£2.50 seems too low.

I get the impression certain groups just keep going at these low rates due to the generosity of the organisers who most surely be making a lose.

It’s very random that they’ve still not explained the reason for the cost hike.

Indeed, the lack of clarity is frustrating.

And if they were expecting 15 children to pay £5 and can now drop it to £3.50 they’ve not explained what they’re going to do to cover the £22.50 difference they needed this morning.

I'm guessing they didn't actually need the money to be viable as otherwise surely they will be back in the same situation in a few weeks or months time?

'Do they have a committee? Committee meetings or anything like that?*

Nope no committee or anything like that.

The lack of clarity is frustrating

They don't owe you an explanation. This is their offer to you, you can take or leave it. Or if you think you could do better for less then go for it, start your own group.

Cost can be a difficult line to walk when you're running any kind of group. You need to charge enough to cover costs and ideally keep something in the bank for a running replacement programme for any equipment, and a safety net unforeseen expenses, but not so much that it puts people off attending.
I think the organisers of the OP's group aren't doing themselves any favours by failing to provide an explanation for the price rise. Most people are unaware of the expenses involved in running any kind of club or group and so naturally feel aggrieved if prices go up and they aren't getting anything extra for their money.
I'm on the committee of a sports clu so it will be a bit different but the general principles are tge same I expect. Our biggest cost is facility hire, followed by insurance and affiliation to our governing body. Our volunteers don't get any payment for their time but we do cover expenses - though most of us claim far less than it costs us. But things like First Aid courses, Safeguarding courses, training new coaches and CPD for existing volunteers are covered by the club. Our governing body covers our DBS certificates but I'm not sure how that would work for an independent group. Even stuff like keeping the first aid kits up to date and buying things like cleaning materials, tea and coffee etc mount up over time.
Like others, I'd suspect the Church have put the hall hire up (I would be amazed if they are providing it free as most Churches can't afford to do that) but of the organisers don't share that info, it makes people a bit suspicious. However, unfortunately if they can't balance the books they will have to close. There may be grant funding available for the group but unfortunately this usually takes quite a long time to sort out.
In my experience, the running of the actual sessions of any kind of club or group is the easy part - it's keeping things going behind the scenes that is the more time consuming and difficult job.

Of course volunteers can legally claim travel expenses such as travel. But very few do in practice.

They don't owe you an explanation.

Of course they don't but we're all adults and it makes much more sense if you are transparent with each other. At the end of the day if they don't offer clarity they risk people thinking it's being done out of greed.

Surely it's in their best interests to be honest if it's due to rising costs, unless you've been under a rock everyone is well aware that everything is getting more expensive.

As you say, unless you have been living under a rock everyone is aware that the cost of everything is increasing so why would this be a surprise? And as for greedy, seems to me you are getting a very good deal but if there are many better local offers then sure people should be encouraged to go for them.

@Porcupineintherough

As you say, unless you have been living under a rock everyone is aware that the cost of everything is increasing so why would this be a surprise? And as for greedy, seems to me you are getting a very good deal but if there are many better local offers then sure people should be encouraged to go for them.

So you genuinely wouldn't bat an eyelid at something doubling in price in a socially deprived area where many, many people were struggling to pay the bills before everything went up. The demographic isn't a surprise to those running the group hence why I was surprised they had made this decision.

I do think they should share why this is happening.