To ask if you are a 'housewife' with no children?

[crochetmonkey74]

I know the term housewife is outdated so first off apologies.
I've always wondered about this , I had a great aunt and uncle who never had children but she never worked. I've always been interested in how this would be (been a bit of a fantasy of mine)
Do any of you have this life ? What is it like?

@randomiser

But you seem to equate ‘seeing the light’ with working every hour god sends and feeling guilty if you don’t.

There are so many other ways to make a difference in the world. Some people are in the position to explore those options more than others.

No, I really don't. I've said a number of times it's not only via paid work people make a contribution. The freedom not to have a paid job opens up a wealth of opportunities to make a difference through voluntary activities. But there are people on this thread who seem to be using a feminist stance to defend a life restricted to the pursuit of their own pleasure and the facilitation of one man. If that's their choice, fair enough, but to imply this is a blow for feminism is imo misguided, as they're actually just rare examples of women benefitting from the patriarchy.

@Blossomtoes

To me, feminism is an active thing, getting out there and putting your money/time where your mouth is.

You can do that without being paid for it.

Absolutely you can. My comments relate to those who don't.

But what about men who don’t work - the types who just oversee investments, but generally do hobbies simply because they can? Are they dealing a blow to mankind?

Women who go to work though, aren't doing it to strike a blow for feminism - they are doing it to facilitate the lives they want. So while it may or may not help other women (and I do think this is debatable), that's not the primary motivator and shouldn't be positioned as a superior moral choice.

Things I'd like to see for women (since I'm here) is proper enforced child support when a couple divorce and a division of assets that truly takes into account how each party has benefited/lost out due to the joint marital choices re childcare. And good quality affordable childcare throughout the whole country. So women can exercise real choice. And an actual living wage, since I'm making a wish list.

@Abigail12345654321

Women in senior roles should recognise most are there because powerful men found them tolerable. Because they don’t challenge them. Or when they do it’s gentle and kind. Like being bopped on the nose with a marshmallow. And they can smile indulgently and ignore them.

Senior women need to promote women who are not like themselves. Women who will truly challenge senior men. Women who will enjoy the challenge of doing so. And senior women need to stop asking senior men’s permission for who they raise up.

Until then there will be no change.

It’s not the responsibility of women outside the workforce to fix the toxicity in the workforce. That battle must be done by those in the workforce and it will only happen when senior women recognise that more able women were likely passed over in their own favour because they were less palatable as colleagues to the senior men. And they need to change the system from within rather than pulling up the drawbridge and hanging on for dear life. As so many do.

I got my senior role when I fired the male CEO. I don't think he found that acceptable.

@randomiser

But what about men who don’t work - the types who just oversee investments, but generally do hobbies simply because they can? Are they dealing a blow to mankind?

Do you mean are they damaging other men? Quite possibly if they are accruing wealth without any effort on their own part, because they will be doing it on the back of some one's labour. Money doesn't just appear without someone's work and often their exploitation. But that's probably straying into a different area of social injustice. If you're asking if i think its any more acceptable for men to do nothing, then no, I don't.

Women who go to work though, aren't doing it to strike a blow for feminism - they are doing it to facilitate the lives they want. So while it may or may not help other women (and I do think this is debatable), that's not the primary motivator and shouldn't be positioned as a superior moral choice.

Exactly, they are doing it because they want a career/financial independence/to be able to afford a bigger house/whatever. To say they are doing it for feminism is like saying people have children to stop the human race dying out or to provide workers/taxpayers/pension payers/bum wipers for the future.

There are many people who get satisfaction from their careers, but everything comes at a cost. Most people go to work because they need to pay the bills. They are no more feminist or altruistic than the next woman. The job is just a means to an end - their end.

It’s odd to try and quantify one lifestyle as more ‘feminist’ than another as too many factors come into play.

Similarly, I find most people who do charity work only really do what suits them when all is said and done. I mean, if you enjoy cycling or whatever, why not do a charity ride? Very few people give up their comfort zones, in other words.

Also most women who don’t work have actually worked at some point! Quite possibly for some time. They are exactly the same person not working as they were when they worked - just with more free time perhaps, or a different focus. Life has its twists and turns and you make your choices as you go.

@CounsellorTroi

Women who go to work though, aren't doing it to strike a blow for feminism - they are doing it to facilitate the lives they want. So while it may or may not help other women (and I do think this is debatable), that's not the primary motivator and shouldn't be positioned as a superior moral choice.

Exactly, they are doing it because they want a career/financial independence/to be able to afford a bigger house/whatever. To say they are doing it for feminism is like saying people have children to stop the human race dying out or to provide workers/taxpayers/pension payers/bum wipers for the future.

If the senior woman who mentored and inspired me, the female manager who brought in policies that supported me to work while raising my children, the woman in HR who actually understood the difference between banter and harassment were only doing their jobs to pay their bills, I frankly couldn't have cared less. The fact that they were there at all was what mattered.

This is my last post on here, as I have said all I need to say, but I will just say this...

Yes there have been jibes and remarks on both sides, as a few people have said. But it's a FACT that the posters attacking women who stay at home and don't work, started being nasty and negative waaaaay before the 'other side' started.

And you can accuse me of saying 'they started it nah nah nah nah nah,' but it's a fact that the attacks on stay-at-home-housewives started first. Nasty, demeaning, catty comments... And they got worse and worse as the thread went on.

The only thing the stay-at-home-housewives (and their supporters like me) did was accuse the 'other side' of being jealous (which many of the most spiteful and vitriolic clearly are,) and they also said that a 9 to 5 existence is more of a dull and pointless life than not working - in their opinion.

In the first few posts of this thread, there was a bunch of snarky posts against 'stay-at-home-housewives' LONG before any comments came back at them. A few were so vicious they were deleted.

I acknowledge that I had one deleted, but that was because I bit back and personally attacked someone who personally attacked women who stay at home, and don't go out into paid employment. I work part time, but still respect the women who choose to be stay-at-home-housewives and mums, and some comments on here (against them) have been disgusting.

An example of the spite fired out by the haters... MANY just in the first 4 or 5 pages of this thread...

'Personally the idea of being a "housewife" without even having children, basically running around after a man, would be my idea of hell.'

'I'd be bored shitless, WTF do you do all day?'

'What a pointless life. You would be just sitting on your arse all day.'

'You would have no purpose and no autonomy.'

'I can't imagine being so dependent and unproductive. I think it's a bit pathetic TBH.'

'I don't believe there is anything whatsoever to envy in a life like this. I'd find it rootless, soulless and unfulfilling...'

'You are nothing but a handmaid.'

'Spending your life bumbling around...'

'Oh good God no, it's such a pointless existence.'

Then the comments started going from catty and spiteful to plain nasty....

'It's nothing but dysfunctional co-dependence.'

'Sheer laziness when no kids involved, there's only so much housework and cooking you can do. I highly doubt they are working their arses off cooking and cleaning all week, week in week out!'

'I've got a proper job now, so I'm more worthy.'

'Honestly, I think anyone who chooses to fanny about “managing the household” while their partner works full time is lazy, spoilt and slightly inadequate. You can paint it how you like, the plain fact is that you aren’t even trying to contribute to keeping a roof over your head, and I personally would find that a bit shameful.'

And the now deleted comment 'women who stay home and are kept by their husbands are nothing but parasites.'

This ^ is just a small example of the vicious vitriol and catalogue of spite aimed at women who don't go out to work. The worst anyone said on the 'other side' is that the women attacking them are jealous and that they would HATE to be stuck on a 9 to 5 treadmill.

So don't tell ME that the stay-at-home-housewives and mums, and the posters supporting them are just as bad as the other side, because that's utter bullshit. The posters attacking the stay-at-home-housewives and mums are FAR worse.

As I said, I'm done on this thread now.

Yes, I am a 'housewife' and don't work, nor do I have kids, I"m now in my 60s with a DP. I have a lot of health issues. I have always kept myself busy, though and never get bored. My mother was also a housewife and people used to say 'aren't you bored?' but honestly she hardly ever sat down and was always busy doing something productive.

It's not some wonderful life though, because I feel like I don't count as I don't work and can't claim a profession I belong to. I am terrified of being asked 'so what do you do?' Also I don't have a pension, so that's a bit scary as well. I would love to have worked and been respected for that, but it hasn't happened due to many reasons. Since I cannot do much physically, I do a lot of online stuff now (honestly it's saved my sanity) and have been very involved in health communities as well as roleplay ones.

HelloFrostyMorning - it’s always the way on MN, I’m afraid. But when these posters are called out on their cattiness, they will always try and obfuscate and claim they are only concerned about structural inequality, nothing personal, etc etc. But they’ll be back with the personal snipes on the next similar thread, sure as night follows day. I give it a week, max. The word ‘SAHM’ or ‘housewife’ in a title is like a clarion call going out to them. They can’t help themselves really.

@HelloFrostyMorning

I do think that some of the comments you have highlighted may, in SOME cases, be motivated by women who will be plodding away at jobs which they don't particularly love.

In those cases, their 'vitriol' is motivated by the fact that it is a lifestyle that will never happen for them but they would like it to. This may be something which they don't even want to admit openly to themselves and so it is easier to pretend it is something that they would never want. It's more understandable and easier to do that then yearn for something which just won't be possible.

People generally don't release such nasty responses over a fairly innocuous personal issue, when they're happy with their lot.

I'm happy with my lot and I don't worry about whether women stay at home with leisured lives or work but I can see it must be galling to hear accounts of leisured lives when you're plodding away at a job you don't want but have to do.

Women who have fulfilled working lives-not those plodding away for a wage- wouldn't find it necessary to make such horrible comments but jealousy is often the motivator.

@MadameHeisenberg

Yes, fine. But don’t tell people who make different choices (working for e.g.) that they can’t really be choosing and must obviously just be jealous (I’m not talking about you personally here).

Jealous? God no isd be jumping out of a window if I was a housewife all day

@Indoctro

With no income how do you pay your way.? If only one person is earning and no kids to look after if feel like a sponge , draining someone else's money.

I had an income when I wasn't in paid work. My husband could not have done his job if I had been in paid employment so, so far as we were concerned, the money that his company paid him was OUR income paid into OUR bank account.

@neondino
"I agree, I don't feel like the maid at all. The way I see it we have a ton of work comes into the house and we divide it by our strengths and interests. From that, we also have a bunch of money comes into the house, and we divide that up too - it's never felt like my husband earns the money and I get an allowance, it's all joint responsibilities and therefore joint benefits. It's not like my husband is making me do the housework, I just do that bit of the work coming in because I prefer that to him working less to be able to do housework and me having to work a stressful job. I don't particularly like housework, but it's a necessary part of my job, like filing used to be when I worked in an office.

And sometimes I decide to have the day off and the housework doesn't get done. And that's fine, because I can unilaterally decide that. I couldn't just decide not to go into work when I worked in the office. The housework can be done tomorrow, because I have the time for that, it's not like I only have two days a week to cram in all the life admin and the volunteering and the hobbies I want to do. I don't think a maid is allowed to just sack off the cleaning because there's a new series of Line of Duty they want to watch."

yes that was what it was like for us

@velvet24

I think the point is many women in this position aren't just 'housewives'.

They probably, on average, do the same amount of house chores as working women do.

The point is that the time that other women spend in jobs is spent doing things that they like! These can range from abseiling and voluntary work to reading and embroidery.

They have no call on their time. If they were bored shitless, as you say, they could get a job!

It is pretty depressing to say that a paid job is the only thing that is stopping you being bored shitless. Your life must be a bit grim.

@HelloFrostyMorning

Good rebuttal. Thank you.

If the housewife / SAH women didn’t have ‘financial independence’ then obviously they’d be at work wouldn’t they?

I think some people on MN have this weird image of housewives and SAHMs, shuffling about dusting, waiting for the god-almighty husband to give them handouts.

As if!

I feel sorry for women who make comments like ‘you are sponging off your husband.’ Then don’t realise how much this reveals about their own marriage dynamic. They must be married to some real MN specials of the ‘have my kids but let’s have separate finances’ variety, that’s all I can say.

@randomiser

If the housewife / SAH women didn’t have ‘financial independence’ then obviously they’d be at work wouldn’t they?

I think some people on MN have this weird image of housewives and SAHMs, shuffling about dusting, waiting for the god-almighty husband to give them handouts.

As if!

I feel sorry for women who make comments like ‘you are sponging off your husband.’ Then don’t realise how much this reveals about their own marriage dynamic. They must be married to some real MN specials of the ‘have my kids but let’s have separate finances’ variety, that’s all I can say.

Well said!!

@CurtainTroubles

Why couldn’t your husband have worked if you also had a job *@godmum56*? Most working age households manage just fine with two people working. My job has in no way held back my husbands career and we also have children.

At the risk of making your eyes roll I am not going to answer that in detail as it gives away too much. I have made general comments throughout the thread describing what our life was like. I will say though that we weren't like most working age households. As he moved roles ands we had more stability, I did go back to my own profession and did well....specialist clinical/it/change management project roles and middle management in the NHS as well as being a specialist clinician at the same time.

@MrsPelligrinoPetrichor
"I always wonder on threads like this how people will cope when they retire."

just fine thank you. I'd be better if my husband hadn't died though.