To ask if you are a 'housewife' with no children?

[crochetmonkey74]

I know the term housewife is outdated so first off apologies.
I've always wondered about this , I had a great aunt and uncle who never had children but she never worked. I've always been interested in how this would be (been a bit of a fantasy of mine)
Do any of you have this life ? What is it like?

Women in senior roles should recognise most are there because powerful men found them tolerable. Because they don’t challenge them. Or when they do it’s gentle and kind. Like being bopped on the nose with a marshmallow. And they can smile indulgently and ignore them.

Senior women need to promote women who are not like themselves. Women who will truly challenge senior men. Women who will enjoy the challenge of doing so. And senior women need to stop asking senior men’s permission for who they raise up.

Until then there will be no change.

It’s not the responsibility of women outside the workforce to fix the toxicity in the workforce. That battle must be done by those in the workforce and it will only happen when senior women recognise that more able women were likely passed over in their own favour because they were less palatable as colleagues to the senior men. And they need to change the system from within rather than pulling up the drawbridge and hanging on for dear life. As so many do.

Posters saying if the marriage breaks down the "housewife" is left with nothing - well surely she's entitled to half of everything???
Disclaimer - I work full time

@RainCloude

Posters saying if the marriage breaks down the "housewife" is left with nothing - well surely she's entitled to half of everything??? Disclaimer - I work full time

Her earning potential has typically been lost so she will have a lower income than she would if she had worked.

But I don’t think that’s a reason for all women to go out to work.

True but if married to a high earner she will have enough to live off of divorced and getting half. I'm just pointing that out as if you're married to a high earner and you're a "housewife" it's not an insecure situation necessarily.

@Abigail12345654321

Women in senior roles should recognise most are there because powerful men found them tolerable. Because they don’t challenge them. Or when they do it’s gentle and kind. Like being bopped on the nose with a marshmallow. And they can smile indulgently and ignore them.

Senior women need to promote women who are not like themselves. Women who will truly challenge senior men. Women who will enjoy the challenge of doing so. And senior women need to stop asking senior men’s permission for who they raise up.

Until then there will be no change.

It’s not the responsibility of women outside the workforce to fix the toxicity in the workforce. That battle must be done by those in the workforce and it will only happen when senior women recognise that more able women were likely passed over in their own favour because they were less palatable as colleagues to the senior men. And they need to change the system from within rather than pulling up the drawbridge and hanging on for dear life. As so many do.

It's relieving and affirming to see this set out so plainly.

What women could do better though, is not constantly bad mouth the choices of other women.

Yes, be kind.

You'd never try to get men to shut up this way.

Women can robustly discuss the issues that affect them, in whatever way. Increasingly frenzied accusations of jealousy add the sum total of fuck all to the discussion, but women on any side of any issue relevant to them have as much right as anyone else to present their views on it.

Abigail12345654321 Women in senior roles should recognise most are there because powerful men found them tolerable. Because they don’t challenge them. Or when they do it’s gentle and kind. Like being bopped on the nose with a marshmallow. And they can smile indulgently and ignore them.

Senior women need to promote women who are not like themselves. Women who will truly challenge senior men. Women who will enjoy the challenge of doing so. And senior women need to stop asking senior men’s permission for who they raise up.

Until then there will be no change.
It’s not the responsibility of women outside the workforce to fix the toxicity in the workforce. That battle must be done by those in the workforce and it will only happen when senior women recognise that more able women were likely passed over in their own favour because they were less palatable as colleagues to the senior men. And they need to change the system from within rather than pulling up the drawbridge and hanging on for dear life. As so many do.

Haven't rtft, but what a great post. I think about this a lot, because every day I deal with classes of kids where the most successful students are girls who are quiet, polite, compliant and hard-working. It is hard not to reward that behaviour, because tbh it's the behaviour that best enables teachers to teach and students to learn.

Yes let’s all toe the line then. Let’s all squeeze into the same narrow boxes and convince ourselves that the only purpose in life and the only way we can define ourselves is through a job description. Let’s never allow ourselves to consider anything beyond that. No, we must all think and feel the same. Let’s define ourselves by men and measure ourselves by them. It’s all that matters in life. What more could we want?

With no income how do you pay your way.? If only one person is earning and no kids to look after if feel like a sponge , draining someone else's money.

@Abigail12345654321

Its not the responsibility of women outside the workforce to fix the toxicity in the workforce

It’s not. But the prevailing narrative on these threads is often, roughly: “if you are so over involved in other women’s lives and marriages you must be jealous”. It’s simplistic and insulting to assume that the only motivation behind finding this unsettling is jealousy. As I and others have stated, no one (or almost no one), judges a woman for making a personal decision that suits her family. But I do think it’s reasonable to consider the broader societal implications of taking a position within a marriage which serves to extend male power. If you are an independent woman you are bound to have a position on this.

I agree that women in the workforce need to do more to promote women. Some do, of course, but it’s inconsistent.

DrSbaitso, discussing issues is fine, criticising in a nasty way is not!
'Be kind' has been appropriated by those who want to deny women a voice, but the innate notion of being kind is a good one - nobody needs to go through life accusing other people of horrible things for making perfectly legitimate life choices and for putting what works for them/their families ahead of what some other person deems to be a greater good.

I've been in MN for a long time - I've seen sahm being likened to prostitutes and whom being called neglectful parents. It's totally unnecessary, when everyone has a right to live as they see fit.

@MadameHeisenberg

How is ‘successful’ being defined? Because if it’s marrying a wealthy man and then never doing anything else again, I’d say that’s the definition of being unsuccessful at adult life!

This would be my definition of success.

"The man is a success who has lived well, laughed often, and loved much; who has gained the respect of intelligent men and the love of children; who has filled his niche and accomplished his task; who leaves the world better than he found it, whether by an improved poppy, a perfect poem, or a rescued soul; who never lacked appreciation of earth's beauty or failed to express it; who looked for the best in others and gave the best he had". Robert Louis Stevenson.

Some people are able to achieve this through work but others find it outside a working environment. Everyone has a different path and should follow what fits them best and not judge/look down on others who do something different.

@Aderyn21

DrSbaitso, discussing issues is fine, criticising in a nasty way is not! 'Be kind' has been appropriated by those who want to deny women a voice, but the innate notion of being kind is a good one - nobody needs to go through life accusing other people of horrible things for making perfectly legitimate life choices and for putting what works for them/their families ahead of what some other person deems to be a greater good.

I've been in MN for a long time - I've seen sahm being likened to prostitutes and whom being called neglectful parents. It's totally unnecessary, when everyone has a right to live as they see fit.

Yes absolutely

And obviously vicious comments aimed at women who work full time who have their own children

Thats due to the personality of those posters but it doesn’t make for pleasant reading and also contributes to other posters feeling defensive and making their own stupid comments

Women can robustly discuss the issues that affect them, in whatever way. Increasingly frenzied accusations of jealousy add the sum total of fuck all to the discussion, but women on any side of any issue relevant to them have as much right as anyone else to present their views on it

This is obviously fine, and usually very interesting

I dont like be kind…

But i do think people should be able to have a discussion without insults

DP and I both work long hours out of the house in demanding jobs and it means weekends are spent doing cleaning, DIY, groceries, food prepping for the following week as we're too knackered to cook a good meal otherwise, laundry, etc.
We don't even have kids but I reckon I could find enough to do as a housewife a couple of days a week!

@Indoctro

With no income how do you pay your way.? If only one person is earning and no kids to look after if feel like a sponge , draining someone else's money.

You wouldn't just feel like a sponge, you would be a sponge.

I really don't get why so many are clamouring to claim there's any value in not working when there's no reason not to.

If a man does it he's a cocklodger. If a woman does it she's absolutely entitled to do so and is performing a valuable role. Apparently...

I did for 16 years. I travel with my husband for 10 years. Lived in 14 countries and I absolutely loved our time together. Then we settled and I enjoyed having a home to look after. I trained to be a chef and a counsellor but I've never worked in either. Then we had a baby. I'm still at home and our son is 16. We've been together nearly 33 years. Has been a great life. My husband is retiring this year and we are moving to Mexico.

I think the term cocklodger is used about a man who moves in with a woman and literally contributes nothing. If his working partner came home to a clean house and dinner and a man who got on with stuff, he'd not be a cocklodger!

Oh fgs. Some women and men can afford not to work. So they don’t. Do you really think these people give a damn about what anyone on MN thinks? They have made their money and are in a position to live more flexibly. That’s all there is to it.

I know couples who divide their time between various international locations, depending on the seasons. They have investment portfolios and business interests, but prefer to be as hands off as possible. Money does not buy happiness, but it does buy choice and the ability to not be tied down to one job or location. People like this don’t worry about housework, division of labour blah blah blah or whatever. They are making decisions in a different context. When money is not an issue, people can refocus their energies elsewhere.

@Abigail12345654321

Women in senior roles should recognise most are there because powerful men found them tolerable. Because they don’t challenge them. Or when they do it’s gentle and kind. Like being bopped on the nose with a marshmallow. And they can smile indulgently and ignore them.

Senior women need to promote women who are not like themselves. Women who will truly challenge senior men. Women who will enjoy the challenge of doing so. And senior women need to stop asking senior men’s permission for who they raise up.

Until then there will be no change.

It’s not the responsibility of women outside the workforce to fix the toxicity in the workforce. That battle must be done by those in the workforce and it will only happen when senior women recognise that more able women were likely passed over in their own favour because they were less palatable as colleagues to the senior men. And they need to change the system from within rather than pulling up the drawbridge and hanging on for dear life. As so many do.

Absolutely. Best post of the thread.

@randomiser

Oh fgs. Some women and men can afford not to work. So they don’t. Do you really think these people give a damn about what anyone on MN thinks? They have made their money and are in a position to live more flexibly. That’s all there is to it.

I know couples who divide their time between various international locations, depending on the seasons. They have investment portfolios and business interests, but prefer to be as hands off as possible. Money does not buy happiness, but it does buy choice and the ability to not be tied down to one job or location. People like this don’t worry about housework, division of labour blah blah blah or whatever. They are making decisions in a different context. When money is not an issue, people can refocus their energies elsewhere.

Of course they won't care what anyone on MN is thinking but on MN we have many discussions about things that don't really matter

@Aderyn21

Men don't go through life making decisions on the basis of whether their choices help other people in the future - they do what suits them. I think it's a bit much to expect individual females to make our life choices taking what's good for all other women into consideration. That's essentially just more mental load. We only get one life and we have to make ourselves happy.

What women could do better though, is not constantly bad mouth the choices of other women. The sah/woh threads on MN get very nasty sometimes and it's not necessary - everyone is just doing their best to have a nice life.

I agree that everyone, men and women should be free to make the choices that suit them. However, as a society, we need people to act in ways that benefit others. Most people probably don't get a choice, they have to do some work and so some contribute by default. But many others who don't have to still do because they've an eye to the greater good. If you don't want or have to be one of them, that's fine, and no, no one should 'bad mouth' you for it. But I think the expectations on here go further than wanting neutrality. People appear to be expecting equal respect and admiration for their choice, when compared to those who do contribute, and I've yet to see an argument as to why that is warranted. As for the feminist angle, yes, I'm sure many men make selfish choices, but I fail to see how women's lot is improved by women making them too. To me, feminism is an active thing, getting out there and putting your money/time where your mouth is. You don't bring about change by sitting at home wishing for it, waiting for men to see the light, and watching other women do the heavy lifting.

But you seem to equate ‘seeing the light’ with working every hour god sends and feeling guilty if you don’t.

There are so many other ways to make a difference in the world. Some people are in the position to explore those options more than others.

I don't think woh is necessarily helping feminism unless those woh women are also refusing to take on more than their fair share of the mental load and domestic work. Otherwise it really does become women doing everything and being twice as knackered while their male colleagues get a good night's sleep and are all fresh for work because they didn't spend the evening ironing school uniform and making packed lunches!

To me, feminism is an active thing, getting out there and putting your money/time where your mouth is.

You can do that without being paid for it.