To have shouted at MIL for being racist?

[Eurydice84]

MIL has many annoying habits. One of them (which has been going on for a while) is that she mocks Italian accent and gestures (I am Italian). This could be funny from a friend once in a while, but the way she does it - when talking to DD, whom I am raising bilingual, and in a sneaky way - really upsets me. DH told her more than once that I hate it and she should stop.

Anyway yesterday she was doing it a lot. At first I made some subtle comments it should stop, then DH had a word, but it carried on so I lost it and shouted at her. I said it is disrespectful, borderline racist and if she carries on she is not welcome in my house anymore. She then left without having dinner, after DH also said she was out of order.

I feel I was wrong at shouting, but I felt really violated and needed to stand up for myself. I went through all the alternative options first (DH having a word, etc).

Now it's an incredibly awkward situation as she lives quite close and I am dreading having to see this woman again. She looks after DD once a week.... not sure I can cope with it anymore!

OP mentioned that she mocks her Italian accent and hand gestures. The assumption is xenophobia rather than race since race wasn’t mentioned on the OP or subsequent posts (and it would be relevant).

My parents would have loved one of us bringing an Italian home. Dad lived there for a couple of years when he was young and they both loved all things Italian.

Oh and by the way @ChickenStripper one of the nationalities I listed was my own!

[quote HaveringWavering]@ChickenStripper I am at a total loss as to what you are getting at. What do you mean about naming other nationalities? I picked them at random! I’ll say this very slowly- the nationality of the burly brother in my scenario was irrelevant. The only qualification was that he should be the same nationality as the OP, and burly![/quote]
As people would say you need to go away and think about what you said. Let me explain it slowly - if I were Italian and you said get one of my burly brothers to go round and deal with her I would think she is basing this on thinking that all Italians are tied to the Mafia. If I were Scottish and you said that I would think you are saying Scottish men are rough. Need I go on? I am pointing out to you that we don't always see the insult unless it applies to us and that everyone can hold some less than satisfactory stereotypes/misperceptions. Here you are commenting on this and not even seeing your own comment for what it is in some people's eyes. OK point made.

The only surprising thing about your reaction is that you waited so long to make your position clear. Coming from a family with a number of nationalities, and also the mother of bilingual children, I am outraged on your behalf about her behaviour. Your MiL is incredibly rude, and as a pp said, this is a power play to make sure you understand your place. Do not even for one second think about making peace. Find alternative childcare and stick to your boundaries. You have to stand up to bullies, and this is exactly what she is.

@ChickenStripper but you’d already explained that. I said that I saw your point.

I then stated again that my suggestion was completely unconnected to any prejudice about people from particular nationalities, by explaining that I would simply have matched the nationality of the brother to that of the OP. I did not deny your statement that it might have been PERCEIVED that way. I’m not sure why you feel the need to keep repeating that point?

Off point but the username Chickenstripper is inspired.

OP how about that one - just start calling your MIL Chickenstripper, for no reason. Next time she starts with her weird mocking - 'Shut it Chickenstripper'

@Lesperance

In the ops third post she says...

As I said, I wouldn't take offense from a friend, in a light-hearted context.

So no...I didn't "extrapolate wildly". The op is clear that she would react differently if a friend did it.

What are you getting at here? Are you really suggesting, that if the Op has some Burly brothers, that she sends them to scare and threaten an old lady? WOW.

The MIL might br more hesitant to be racist to their faces.

Although I doubt you as an apologist care.

@TheFrendo

That is not racist as Italians are not a race.

It is rude, unpleasant, unfunny and insulting to you. But not racist.

Again - we don't know that.

You know black people can live in Italy, being Italians, right?
Same as white Italians?
Same as black people can live in Britain, being Brits?
All of these picking up generational native mannerisms & speech patterns?

The assumption that OP - & her DH & MiL - are white is unconscious bias, which, while not malignly intended, shows how deep our expectations of "whiteness = default normal person" goes. i.e. - racism.

@DisforDarkChocolate

This isn't borderline racist, it is racist.

I know this isn't Pedant's Corner, but no it's not.

She's Xenophobic not racist. And I do think it's important to use the right words

Either way, totally unacceptable.

@ChargingBuck I don’t think that the definition of the MIL’s rude behaviour really matters here, all that matters is that she is behaving unacceptably towards OP. However surely the point is that the MIL would mock any Italian in the same way, regardless of their skin colour? So the mocking is not based on a racial characteristic but on nationality/culture?

@GrendelsGrandma

I wouldn't be quite as up in arms about doing the voice per se, I think it might be a generational thing as this used to be commonplace (see Manuel in Fawlty Towers etc).

However given that it's 2020 not 1980 and you have spelled out to her multiple times that it's rude and unwelcome, YANBU. Maybe having lost your rag at her will make her finally take notice.

Oh for the Love!!

Some of that 'generation' have moved on you know.

Just pack it in with the 'generational' crap

She sounds grim, both to do it at all and to ignore being told that it offends you.

Thank goodness your husband stands up for you.

@Soul11Soul

If only life were as simple and black and white as you make out *@AmaryllisNightAndDay*.

Relationships aren't that simplistic. Presumably OP loves her partner and her child. Presumably she loves her family being together. Given they have been so kind and thoughtful towards the mil up until this point in time, her partner loves his mum. He may be more likely to forgive his mum's behaviour because he knows her and understands her. Op herself has said that she wouldn't be bothered if this was a friend of hers but hates it because it's her mother in law because she feels like it is done to wind her up. How does she know this? She is attributing negative motivations to behaviour to one person that she wouldn't attribute to another. Her husband is less likely to attribute the same negative motivations because he knows and loves his mum. People are complicated and stupid and imperfect, they make mistakes and when given the opportunity can and sometimes do learn from them.

For example I can see my own mum doing this. It wouldn't be because she is xenophobic. It would be because she is socially awkward and it would be a misguided attempt to use humour and ribbing to bond. She is also very insecure and would probably be intimidated by someone she regarded as excitingly different. Of course Ops mother in law could just be mean and cruel, none of us know.

@Soul11Soul & if your mother did this, as you are certain it would not be in malice, when the recipient of her 'bonding' said "please don't do that", she'd stop it pronto, no?

I doubt she'd need to be told dozens of times, or have your partner tell her as she wouldn't listen, or carry on when it's obvious her target was upset.

By your assertion - your mum isn't nasty enough to do that.
There's no need to defend someone else's, - who is.

So no...I didn't "extrapolate wildly". The op is clear that she would react differently if a friend did it.

But @Soul11Soul - you omitted the most important inference - friends doing it as an occasional one-off.

Whereas MiL does it constantly, persistently, no matter how many times asked, then told, then told again by her own son, not to.

@KittenKong

OP mentioned that she mocks her Italian accent and hand gestures. The assumption is xenophobia rather than race since race wasn’t mentioned on the OP or subsequent posts (and it would be relevant).

My parents would have loved one of us bringing an Italian home. Dad lived there for a couple of years when he was young and they both loved all things Italian.

Fine line. She has made comments in the past about "Indians", "Muslims", etc.

So in my case xenophobic, but deep down racist all around.

Shouting at racists is never unreasonable. Well done you!

Her behaviour sounds pure nasty. Well done for making a stand.

She sounds a delight.

So wrong as she is, she may not be capable of thinking her way out of this.

If the isn't then she needs to be told the way out by her son. And the first step out is for MiL to apologise to the OP and DD for her rudeness in mocking them.

It doesn't necessarily even need a discussion of racism because mocking other people's personal characteristics, the way they speak or move their hands, is not acceptable anyway.

People are complicated and stupid and imperfect, they make mistakes and when given the opportunity can and sometimes do learn from them.

And? The OP's DH has already told his mother that his wife hates her behaviour and that she should stop, but she hasn't learned from that. So the way to give that learning opportunity is for her son to lay out very clearly what cannot be said and done in his home, to his child, to his wife .... and what behaviour absolutely requires an apology. An apology is a real learning opportunity because the offender has to acknowledge - however unwillingly - that other people do not find their behaviour excusable and that the other people's hurt feelings do matter.

For example I can see my own mum doing this. It wouldn't be because she is xenophobic. It would be because she is socially awkward and it would be a misguided attempt to use humour and ribbing to bond. She is also very insecure and would probably be intimidated by someone she regarded as excitingly different. Of course Ops mother in law could just be mean and cruel, none of us know.

Her motives matter less than her behaviour. The OP has told her MiL to stop so there is no excuse for her continuing. Perhaps you could find the best words to tell your own mother to "bond" in a more appropriate way, but what you can't do is sacrifice your partner or your child's wellbeing to the ill effects of your mother's extreme social awkwardness and insecurity. And her social problems and insecurity must be extreme and unusual because normal people don't continue that kind of behaviour unless they are ill-wishing. You can't demand that other people in your family condone it.

@Opus17

My DH is German and I'd be really pissed off if a family member did that with him and our DS. Especially after having been told multiple times to stop. You did the right thing. Hopefully mil will apologise and realise what she's done

yes exactly. being German I can tell you it's not funny. Be prepared for it to happen though as German seems another invite of exactly that happening over and over again

Good for you OP

More people should stand up against this kind of behaviour as well as the disrespect of continuing when told to stop. Far too many sweep it under the carpet as older generations humour or it 'being different' back then.

They need to move with the times or accept they don't get the family treatment anymore.

It's fine to ask an older person to stop being racist or xenophobic, just because something was accepted in the past doesn't mean it is acceptable now.

However, we must try to treat them with the dignity they don't demonstrate themselves. We will all grow old or die trying, and our opinions that we hold now will become unacceptable in decades to come. "Progressive" attitudes from the 90s seem regressive now, it's inevitable that today's "correct" attitudes will be offensive in 30 years.

One thing we can be sure of is that our own views and attitudes will change slower than those of society as a whole. That's always been the case, the young define what's acceptable partially as a reaction to and perceived improvement on what previous generations deemed correct. It's naive, and arrogant, to assume our generation is somehow immune to this.

@MorningStarling

It's fine to ask an older person to stop being racist or xenophobic, just because something was accepted in the past doesn't mean it is acceptable now.

However, we must try to treat them with the dignity they don't demonstrate themselves. We will all grow old or die trying, and our opinions that we hold now will become unacceptable in decades to come. "Progressive" attitudes from the 90s seem regressive now, it's inevitable that today's "correct" attitudes will be offensive in 30 years.

One thing we can be sure of is that our own views and attitudes will change slower than those of society as a whole. That's always been the case, the young define what's acceptable partially as a reaction to and perceived improvement on what previous generations deemed correct. It's naive, and arrogant, to assume our generation is somehow immune to this.

If someone is repeatedly racist despite being asked not to be, not sure why they should be treated with dignity, whatever that means, just because it might have been slightly more acceptable to be racist 60 years ago.

Well, yes, but attempts to end racism have been going on since the 1960s. The OP's mother will have lived through them. If she hasn't learned by now, then that's simply not excusable by saying she's old.

And I really, really don't believe this:
"One thing we can be sure of is that our own views and attitudes will change slower than those of society as a whole. "

Did you/don't you ever campaign for change? Have you never signed a petition, handed out a leaflet, taked to other people, written a letter to your MP ete etc about something that you would like to see changed in 'society as a whole'?? If people with progressive ideas never did this, then nothing would change.

The changes in the UK anti-racist law were spearheaded by a veteran MP who was born in 1888. It's not only the young who want to change society - it's people with ideas and dreams and hopes of justice.