Pregnant 'person' emoji, for gender inclusivity.

[Indigofig]

www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-10451689/Apple-adopts-latest-emoji-including-pregnant-MAN.html

I know it is DM, but this has really angered the feminist in me. AIBU to feel like this? Or is it justified?

I don’t understand why people get worked up about this stuff. It’s not replacing the pregnant women emoji and you can simply ignore it if you want.

I get the concerns some women have about transwomen in women’s prisons and sports etc. I do. But complaining about things like this just makes you look intolerant.

[quote PinkyU]**@DownWhichOfLate* of course some* men can experience womanhood.

Womanhood is experience based, it’s internalised as well as externalised. A person born male can have their own internalised experience of womanhood and if “passing” can also experience external ideas of womanhood.

People born female who present in a stereotypically masculine way may experience external womanhood is much different way than an overtly feminine presenting person.[/quote]
Word salad.

How can a man have an internalised experience of womanhood?

And what the fuck is external womanhood?

@heathspeedwell do you have links to support that?

[quote PinkyU]**@DownWhichOfLate* of course some* men can experience womanhood.

Womanhood is experience based, it’s internalised as well as externalised. A person born male can have their own internalised experience of womanhood and if “passing” can also experience external ideas of womanhood.

People born female who present in a stereotypically masculine way may experience external womanhood is much different way than an overtly feminine presenting person.[/quote]
No - men cannot be women and cannot experience womanhood (ie the state of being a womanhood). There are experiences women share and there are individual experiences of women, but none of them are experienced by men.

*the state of being a woman

@Mummyoflittledragon yeah that didn’t come out particularly smoothly, coffee and dinner and I’ll see if I can verbalise my sentiments better.

[quote PinkyU]**@DownWhichOfLate* of course some* men can experience womanhood.

Womanhood is experience based, it’s internalised as well as externalised. A person born male can have their own internalised experience of womanhood and if “passing” can also experience external ideas of womanhood.

People born female who present in a stereotypically masculine way may experience external womanhood is much different way than an overtly feminine presenting person.[/quote]
oh pinky you had me going for a while but obviously no one really believes nonsensical word salads like this. You’re clearly on the wind up

@Ifitistobesaid

I don’t understand why people get worked up about this stuff. It’s not replacing the pregnant women emoji and you can simply ignore it if you want.

I get the concerns some women have about transwomen in women’s prisons and sports etc. I do. But complaining about things like this just makes you look intolerant.

This.

It's an emoji. It's ok.

I actually think that 'concerned' stances like this makes it harder to argue for women's spaces, it looks so petty.

Just out of interest how many emojis are there to represent pregnant women with disabilities?

Let me guess.....

@PinkyU if you Google 'East European female athletes testosterone' then you'll see loads of articles about the terrible experiences of the poor girls who were given these hormones.

Some women had still births, some of their babies were born blind or with other disabilities. Some of the women who were given testosterone are now in wheelchairs or dead, and yet they were obviously incredibly fit just 30 years ago.

It's an absolute tragedy and it really highlights the urgent need for more research into the side effects of experimental hormone treatment.

Not at all - there’s nothing petty about fighting to ensure that biological reality isn’t trumped by the kind of ‘men can experience womanhood’ nonsense we’ve seen on here.

Maybe trans men would be happier being known as a womb-man while pregnant ? To me it's an extension of the American saying that "we are pregnant" Maybe I'm just pedantic but men cannot be pregnant, they can be expectant fathers. I can only see this becoming an even more polarising subject as the overly vocal extremists demand their rights

@SirChenjins

*the state of being a woman

Obviously there are things that only biologically female people can experience such as periods, pregnancy, menopause etc (and some biological females don't for whatever reason). Trans men don't experiences these things because they are trans men but because their biology doesn't align with their gender identity, we know that to be a fact. But I don't understand why trans women who have transitioned or who pass as biological women can't have the same lived experiences as us? If they are perceived as 'real' women as you might put it, surely they will be victims of misogyny because men don't know that they were born male. There will be trans women who you won't know are trans until they tell you. They use our bathrooms safely like everyone else. They shop in supermarkets without feeling the need to swing their penises or expose their medically constructed vaginas. Because cisgender men are more of a danger to cisgender women than trans women are. So while trans women won't have the exact same lived experiences of womenhood that we have (eg feeling violated during a smear test etc), I think you are wrong to say that it is impossible for trans women (the people you deem to be men) to share experiences with us because they do.

Sorry @harrystylestaylorswift but there is more to "womanhood" than shopping in a supermarket or using a ladies loo!!

Trans women retain the virtually the same level of criminality as men. So, yes, they are very much a threat to women.

As a woman born a woman, if I was pregnant I would resemble the "pregnant man" emoji more than I would the woman so I can't get mad. Just refer to it as a woman with short hair and a blue jumper

@PinkyU

globalsportmatters.com/health/2019/11/07/ex-east-german-athletes-struggle-with-health-problems-due-to-the-consequences-of-ped-taking/

www.newsweek.com/east-germanys-steroid-shame-253840

This Newsweek article says that around 90% of the athletes who were given testosterone now have serious health issues and a number of them have died prematurely.

Oh and while I'm at it - our biology is what makes us women so no one who is born a man can EVER experience "womanhood". To say so is disingenuous at best, and extremely offensive at worst.

But the OP is nothing to do with whether or not transwomen can experience womanhood, it's about an additional emoji for transmen to use. The only objection is that this allows a pregnant transman a small amount of validation. It costs women nothing. It's petty.

Obviously I wasn't born a woman, but you know what I mean

So there’s an emoji for ‘pregnant man’ but there still isn’t one for people with white skin and brown hair! 🙄

Maybe we should validate all body dysphoria - where’s the emoji for an anorexic?

@harrystylestaylorswift

So at what point to they become a woman? How does a transwoman experience the female experience? You're unintentionally invalidating those who don't pass, surely? You need to pass as a woman to have the woman experience.

I'd also add, it's generally harder to pass convincingly as a TW vs TM. And most trans people aren't going to have the money to do all the work required (facial surgery, breast, voice feminisation, hairline, hair removal/electrolysis, possibly fat transfer).

So maybe what you said would be true if they did all. that but it doesn't take sense to say before they had the female experience, I don't think

@harrystylestaylorswift - they will never have the lived experience of women. Their experience will be that of trans women - the two experiences are very different and shouldn’t be lumped under the same general heading. They are men who either present as women or who have transitioned or partially transitioned through the use of drugs and possibly surgery, but that does not make them women and never will. Shopping in a supermarket without feeling the need to expose your genitalia does not make you a woman.