To use benefits to put down a deposit for a house

[Bringinglightandpeace]

Hello all,

This thread is not about me.

I have a friend who is feeling incredibly guilty. This is how it goes... so she applied for benefits, she has children and a husband,,, well technically partner but anyway she received a huge backlog of benefits. She confided in me that she would like to use the money to to put down a deposit for a help to buy scheme or shared ownership. I told her "well you have to use every opportunity that you can get" but in my conscience, I was thinking, is this right? I am on benefits myself so not judging at all. She feels a bit down about it as it's not her hard on money that she used to put a deposit down..but then again some parents give their children money for a deposit... so I guess it's similar.

However, I feel a bit of itch and thought to myself that I don't think what she is doing is right. But then again, I don't want to come across as jealous. What do you all think?

@Fr0thandBubble they don't spend a "large amount " of your tax contributions on benefits..
Jesus Christ.

Have a look a the gov statistics, the minority of the population are on welfare, the other proportion is pension payments.

There are bigger fish to fry seriously, why are you not "grateful " you the ability and position to earn the wage you do?

The OP obviously has a disability which hampers her life in order to qualify for the benefits she has received.

She is hardly living the high life with the Easter partner she has shacked up with for god sake.

Fraudulent claims are unacceptable, but they are unacceptable at all levels of society, not just those in poverty

[quote misssunshine4040]@Fr0thandBubble they don't spend a "large amount " of your tax contributions on benefits..
Jesus Christ.

Have a look a the gov statistics, the minority of the population are on welfare, the other proportion is pension payments.

There are bigger fish to fry seriously, why are you not "grateful " you the ability and position to earn the wage you do?

The OP obviously has a disability which hampers her life in order to qualify for the benefits she has received.

She is hardly living the high life with the Easter partner she has shacked up with for god sake.

Fraudulent claims are unacceptable, but they are unacceptable at all levels of society, not just those in poverty
[/quote]
Apologies for the typos,

Easter - Waster

Grateful for your ability to earn the amount you do when some never ever will, not because they can't or don't work hard, they just don't have the opportunities

More going on here than meets the eye. If the friend hasn’t told the council she has someone living with her, she’s committing fraud. She’s confided in the OP that she hasn’t been honest so if she’s truthful with herself she knows she’s committing fraud. If she’s on DWP benefits, the council will likely be paying housing/council tax benefit and if her partner is living with her, for starters she’s not eligible for the single persons’ council tax discount. The partners’ income would need to be taken into account when calculating housing and any other council benefits. Same with DWP - income related ESA, JSA, UC, etc are calculated on the basis of any other existing income and the partner’s income would have to be declared. It’s fraud and the end result is that a proportion of the large back payment she has received will inevitably be classed as an overpayment if her real circumstances are discovered. She would face possible prosecution, a fine and she would have to repay any overpayment.

There are numerous ways people get caught out in benefit fraud and to think that you’ll get away with it long term is stupid. There is no escape once you’re caught out - all DWP correspondence clearly states that the claimant is responsible for reporting any change in circumstances immediately - so the friend can’t claim ignorance.

So knowing all of this, is it really a good idea to use the money as a down payment on a house and then live in fear of being discovered ? They would inevitably lose the house in the end, so it’s pointless. I wouldn’t be able to sleep at night with all that going on, much less be thinking about buying a house with dishonestly obtained funds.

Benefit fraud she is not entitled to all the money if her partner is living with her. But if she had legally been entitled to the money it would be hers to spend as she wishes

The PIP may also be fraudulent if OP’s friend is planning to go back to full time work when it’s more convenient

There is nothing to stop someone from claiming PIP and working - it’s a cost benefit meant to supplement extra costs from living with a disability. It’s not means tested and if the OPs condition has not changed in any way, then working isn’t a problem. Many, many disabled people are enabled to be able to travel to work by using the mobility component of PIP to lease a car from Motability.

As an aside, she'd be absolutely crazy to hand her monkey over to a partner to put a house in his name. Especially one who is himself poor with money

It is my money! I earned it and I give it to the government who distribute a large portion of it to people on benefits! As do other net contributors!

If it's your money does that mean I pay for your NHS treatment and your elderly parents social care?

It's not your money. It's a tax you pay. You don't go and buy a new pair of shoes then insist the company has to invest that money how you want because that's your money being invested.

@Dishwashersaurous

True. Although it's possible to claim pip and work full time, depending on the nature of the disability.

One of the questions in the PIP assessment is whether the claimant works full/part time and the nature of the work - it’s all taken into account and reflected in the level of PIP award. For those who return to work after PIP is in payment, it’s not the actual work that’s important, it’s that the medical condition hasn’t changed in any way. DWP regulations state that entering work is not a change that needs to be reported for PIP purposes, unless the claimant’s condition has changed in any way - and there are lots of ways disabled people can be supported into work despite being substantially disabled.

Absolutely she should. Benefits are meant to be a short term thing. She will have gone without previously against what she was entitled to. You have to take every opportunity in life and this is a great opportunity for her.

@nomoneytree

Absolutely she should. Benefits are meant to be a short term thing. She will have gone without previously against what she was entitled to. You have to take every opportunity in life and this is a great opportunity for her.

RTFT. The funds have been obtained by fairly comprehensive benefit fraud.

[quote youvegottenminuteslynn]@grey12

Trust me I don't exactly LOVE living with my inlaws in order to save for a deposit

So you are also living somewhere free / subsidised in order to save... it just happens to be with relatives?

You realise not everyone is lucky enough to be able to have family who will house them for free / less than market rate?

What a hypocrite you are. [/quote]
Can I ask the government to give me a cheap place to rent just for me DH and the kids??? I would love that. But I can't, because DH gets a reasonable pay from his job. So the only options for me is either expensive private rent and never having our house or throw our privacy to the wind and live with inlaws for 4 years and counting......

@misssunshine4040 Eh? To whom do you want me to be grateful for my ability to earn a decent salary? I did it all off my own bat - I had no more opportunity than anyone else (in fact, quite the reverse).

I said I’m grateful for my state education, but I’m not sure who else you want me to be grateful to.

If I were receiving benefits then I would be very grateful because I would actually be receiving money that someone else had earned. Why wouldn’t someone feel grateful for that?

@girlmom21

It is my money! I earned it and I give it to the government who distribute a large portion of it to people on benefits! As do other net contributors!

If it's your money does that mean I pay for your NHS treatment and your elderly parents social care?

It's not your money. It's a tax you pay. You don't go and buy a new pair of shoes then insist the company has to invest that money how you want because that's your money being invested.

And in many cases benefit claimants are tax payers themselves. A lot of benefits are taxable - off the top of my head, contributory ESA, carers allowance, UC, JSA, widowed parents allowance, bereavement allowance and state pension. In some circumstances child benefit is also taxable if you exceed the threshold.

@nomoneytree

Absolutely she should. Benefits are meant to be a short term thing. She will have gone without previously against what she was entitled to. You have to take every opportunity in life and this is a great opportunity for her.

RTFT - fairly obvious the friend has been committing benefit fraud and part of the back payment will inevitably be an overpayment due to that fraud.

@grey12 anyone can apply for council housing. My work colleague lives in HA with her husband and kids. I am a single mum on a low wage and I never got a council place, I had to private rent. Everyone is assessed based on individual circumstances.

@grey12

Can I ask the government to give me a cheap place to rent just for me DH and the kids??? I would love that. But I can't, because DH gets a reasonable pay from his job. So the only options for me is either expensive private rent and never having our house or throw our privacy to the wind and live with inlaws for 4 years and counting......

You're able to save because 1. His family are allowing you to live in their home (which you sound incredibly ungrateful for) and 2. Your husband has a reasonably paid job.

For many people the only option is expensive private rent and no saving, if they don't have in laws willing to put them up or the ability to earn well.

You have kids. That's an expense you've chosen too, one you have every right to choose IMO, but one that has stretched your finances further.

As to your first question... yes, anyone can apply. And as you've pointed out you would be unsuccessful as you have enough income as a family to rent.

You also have enough income to save. Because your in laws letting you live in their home is subsidising your living costs hugely. Maybe be thankful for that.

Sounds like she's had a big PIP back payment. These can be in the thousands especially if she is entitled to the higher rate on both mobility and Care.

When you apply for PIP that's when the payment is backdated to. If it takes months/years to sort out and appeals, you get a hefty backdated payment.

If it is the case she's using a PIP back payment, she is legally entitled to this money. PIP is not a income based benefit and makes no difference of you are a single or in a partnerships.

The not being technically being single and not updating the council and UC however is a whole other minefield, and by not reporting the change in circumstances she is committing benefit fraud, this will catch up with her. They only need one letter to go to the house on his name, and that's it game over.

[quote Fr0thandBubble]@misssunshine4040 Eh? To whom do you want me to be grateful for my ability to earn a decent salary? I did it all off my own bat - I had no more opportunity than anyone else (in fact, quite the reverse).

I said I’m grateful for my state education, but I’m not sure who else you want me to be grateful to.

If I were receiving benefits then I would be very grateful because I would actually be receiving money that someone else had earned. Why wouldn’t someone feel grateful for that?[/quote]
Benefits are not ‘money that someone else has earned’. The welfare system is a safety net and recipients may have worked themselves before circumstances forced them to claim the benefits they are entitled to and have contributed to via National Insurance contributions. You may have heard of them !! Those who have not, have their contributions made for them via the NI system and are eligible for benefits that way - most people pay taxes and NI to fund a safety net they hope they will never have to use. I think gratitude is not so much for the individual benefit claimants to feel, but for us all to feel for the fact that we live in a civilised country with a system which aims to care for all - it’s not perfect, as evidenced by the prevalence of food banks, but in the main, it works.

And you may not think you had any more opportunity than anyone else, but think about those people who are trapped in difficult circumstances - where is their opportunity ? Take poverty, for example. Male children from poorer white working class are the least likely to go to university for example. Then there’s victims of discrimination because of disability, race, religion or sexual orientation. I’m very happy that you’re doing well, but if benefit recipients should be grateful for their lot, then maybe you should be too.

@FailureToLurk

Sounds like she's had a big PIP back payment. These can be in the thousands especially if she is entitled to the higher rate on both mobility and Care.

When you apply for PIP that's when the payment is backdated to. If it takes months/years to sort out and appeals, you get a hefty backdated payment.

If it is the case she's using a PIP back payment, she is legally entitled to this money. PIP is not a income based benefit and makes no difference of you are a single or in a partnerships.

The not being technically being single and not updating the council and UC however is a whole other minefield, and by not reporting the change in circumstances she is committing benefit fraud, this will catch up with her. They only need one letter to go to the house on his name, and that's it game over.

Yep, and even if the back payment is PIP, if she has fraudulently claimed other benefits, she will still have to pay them back, so it still doesn’t make any sense to use the money to buy a house - as you say, it will catch up with her in the end, and in most cases it’s the claimants’ own behaviour that stitches them up - confiding in a friend that you have claimed dishonestly and then that friend posting it on MN, for example !!

[quote misssunshine4040]@Fr0thandBubble what a repugnant attitude.

You belong in the Victorian era.

It's not your (top rate tax payers) hard earned money is it. It's everyone's.

Repulsive privileged attitude [/quote]
Huh? Top 1% or earners pay something like 28% of tax and top 10% pay way more than half. You either don’t understand the math or how the system works. Anyone on an average wage is a net recipient. Its a fact whether you like or not. Your outrage doesn’t change facts unfortunately.

They only need one letter to go to the house on his name, and that's it game over.

How on earth would they know what name is on the post op receives?

@liveforsummer

They only need one letter to go to the house on his name, and that's it game over.

How on earth would they know what name is on the post op receives?

Sorry I should have clarified, if it's a government linked letter, like a tax letter/DWP. I dealt with one when I worked in citizens advice and it was actually a court invitation for jury service that linked the claimants, so perhaps court/probation are also linked somehow.

The addresses "ping" on the DWP system as matching and then the "claim is opened for investigation". UC is now linked to NI number now, due to how they calculate employment income. So say single claimants secret partner gets a new job, obviously needs a NI number, tax office get the address via the new employer and that's it, match is made.

@Bringinglightandpeace
Sorry but it's frued, yet again us tax payers are paying for 😠😠😠😠😠😠😠😠.

If she does not think she is entitled to it why doesn't she own up and tell the truth. Hope she's caught out.

• caringcarer The reason the government cannot pay legitimate claimants more money is because scummy people make fraudulent claims and effectively steal from the pot of money for genuine claimants. I would have no hesitation in reporting her.*

Sorry, but this is rubbish. Keeping benefit rates low and imposing harsh eligibility criteria for disability/sickness benefits is a choice, not a necessity. The Tories - this government in particular - want small state and small state means less benefits/public services.

Back in 2010 the coalition government made it very clear that they believed fraudulent claims of disability benefits were significantly pushing up the benefits bill. They used this to mount a campaign branding disability benefit claimants as workshy fraudsters so they could introduce ‘cost saving’ measures such as replacing DLA with PIP, as they believed that DLA was too easy to claim. They also changed the work capability assessment to make the conditions harder to meet.

What they actually found was that fraud in disability benefits was less than 1% - and this included figures on DWP error. The system of assessment introduced as a result of the changes - as anyone who has been through it will know - is harsh, unfair and put in the hands of private companies who employ ‘disability analysts’. These analysts are not doctors but mostly nurses with no experience of the disabilities they are being asked to assess and no skills to do that beyond the few days training they receive. These companies also routinely use physiotherapists, occupational therapists and paramedics to carry out these assessments.

In the end the disability benefits bill was pushed up, not by fraud, but by the cost of genuine claimants being denied the benefits to which they were entitled and having to go through an expensive appeals/tribunal process to establish their entitlement. Medical evidence is routinely dismissed or ignored and claimants who don’t provide their own medical evidence end up having their claim being decided solely on the report produced by the assessor - flaws and inaccuracies included.

There are more changes being considered, and these will inevitably bring more hardship - a consultation has just ended and a green paper will be introduced next year, and one of the proposals is to merge PIP, which is an un means tested benefit, with Universal Credit. This will effectively end entitlement to PIP support for anyone who doesn’t qualify for UC, so they will have effectively means tested PIP. They realised a long time ago that it’s not fraudulent claimants that cost the most money - it’s the most severely disabled who require the most support - and as far as I can see, efforts are now being concentrated on ways to make such claimants ineligible for support. You have been warned.

Can I ask the government to give me a cheap place to rent just for me DH and the kids??? I would love that. But I can't, because DH gets a reasonable pay from his job. So the only options for me is either expensive private rent and never having our house or throw our privacy to the wind and live with inlaws for 4 years and counting......

What about your job? Why didnt you buy before you had kids if you feel that strongly? Why do you think that people who aren't fortunate enough to have family to live with don't deserve the same opportunity as you?