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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

LGBTQ talk in schools

545 replies

JaggedStone · 26/01/2022 22:50

Named changed for this as could be outing.
We are very open with our children and explain life to them in ways they can understand and to ensure they are respectful of everyone and are always open and honest with us.
A LOT of parents have kicked up a fuss about the fact that teachers have spoken to the children today about LGBTQ but it is government mandated as compulsory so essentially the parents can not opt out of it unless they are planning to home school.
Some of the views seem quite hypocritical and some are saying they shouldn’t have these kind of talks yet.
AIBU to think that they are being unreasonable?

OP posts:
nolongersurprised · 27/01/2022 19:06

The 'right' side of the argument is ensuring that children have appropriate information without any political agenda being pushed

And ensuring they get through childhood without their endocrine systems and fertility being destroyed.

Trans ideology, when children are taught they can change sex is not on the “right side of history”.

Helleofabore · 27/01/2022 19:17

Yes, but even having been told, they might still not think it's an issue

Getting back to this.

How many lesbians suffering abuse is considered enough for it to be an issue?

How many lesbians being pressured, assaulted, ostracized from their group is enough for it to be recognised as an issue? And for the supposedly biggest support group to say ‘those males doing this, stop it. It is never acceptable!’

Just wanting to know where the line is?

Also recognising that we have also seen women state that they are actively discouraged from reporting it.

tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 27/01/2022 19:18

I think though that trouble brews when women or lesbians have penises translates to TWAW. And we're fine with that. By accepting the first part you are also the second.

If you then object to TW taking girls and woman's places in sport or shortlists you wouldn't be unreasonable to challenge you as you've previously said TWAW so if so why do you now have an issue.

Whilst I agree many people outside of MN haven't been affected by these outcomes or don't yet know someone who has I think that will change.

I'm thankful on that basis to the many women and girls - and a handful of men - who are openly and publicly risking a lot to very strongly question this.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/01/2022 19:23

How many lesbians being pressured, assaulted, ostracized from their group is enough for it to be recognised as an issue?

Quite. That's why the response to the BBC cotton ceiling article wasn't a good look with anyone not familiar with the situation and already mired in the debate. It shocked people. Rightly.

nolongersurprised · 27/01/2022 19:25

sarah I agree that a 14 year old girl whose mother posts that “I think my daughter is gay” is prob a lesbian.

But - I’m not sure how posters who state “It could be a phase” can be vilified when, in one of your posts, who said that some of your students are lesbian, some are trans and some are still figuring it out.

Your students are 18-21. Why is it then bigoted against lesbians for some posters to not wonder if the (fictional) 14 year old is in that working it out category?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/01/2022 19:26

Basically anything that makes it clear that the outdated notion that MTF trans people are feminine gay men who have "a sex change" is long gone, and all sorts of males want to access women's spaces and take over women's things shocks people.

Isaw3ships · 27/01/2022 19:34

‘They think the school are confusing their children.’
Telling children LGBTQ+ people exist doesn’t confuse anyone. It’s good, old fashioned homophobia claiming that kids might be ‘confused’. It’s parents not wanting a gay child.

SarahAndQuack · 27/01/2022 19:35

@nolongersurprised

sarah I agree that a 14 year old girl whose mother posts that “I think my daughter is gay” is prob a lesbian.

But - I’m not sure how posters who state “It could be a phase” can be vilified when, in one of your posts, who said that some of your students are lesbian, some are trans and some are still figuring it out.

Your students are 18-21. Why is it then bigoted against lesbians for some posters to not wonder if the (fictional) 14 year old is in that working it out category?

It's not bigoted against anyone for any poster to wonder if a 14 year old is still working out their sexuality, whether they're gay or straight.

However, 'it could be a phase' is a phase that has a long association with homophobia, the idea being that the parent should discount the possibility the child is gay, in a way they wouldn't if the child thought they were straight.

EeeICouldRipATissue · 27/01/2022 19:43

However, 'it could be a phase' is a phase that has a long association with homophobia, the idea being that the parent should discount the possibility the child is gay, in a way they wouldn't if the child thought they were straight
Exactly, it doesn't even get questioned.

SarahAndQuack · 27/01/2022 19:45

@Helleofabore

Yes, but even having been told, they might still not think it's an issue

Getting back to this.

How many lesbians suffering abuse is considered enough for it to be an issue?

How many lesbians being pressured, assaulted, ostracized from their group is enough for it to be recognised as an issue? And for the supposedly biggest support group to say ‘those males doing this, stop it. It is never acceptable!’

Just wanting to know where the line is?

Also recognising that we have also seen women state that they are actively discouraged from reporting it.

You'd have to take it up with them, I guess.

I think (I may be wrong) you are presuming when I say 'they might not think it's an issue' what I really mean is 'I, personally, need convincing it's an issue'.

User1isnotavailable · 27/01/2022 19:47

@tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz

I think though that trouble brews when women or lesbians have penises translates to TWAW. And we're fine with that. By accepting the first part you are also the second.

If you then object to TW taking girls and woman's places in sport or shortlists you wouldn't be unreasonable to challenge you as you've previously said TWAW so if so why do you now have an issue.

Whilst I agree many people outside of MN haven't been affected by these outcomes or don't yet know someone who has I think that will change.

I'm thankful on that basis to the many women and girls - and a handful of men - who are openly and publicly risking a lot to very strongly question this.

SPOT ON.
elgreco · 27/01/2022 19:53

My 14yo thinks transwomen are women but if a man has sex with one he is gay. Clearly only one part of this sentence can be true..... its not the first part.
His thinking is illogical. This is a result of the shit that is being shovelled.

CheshireSuburbs · 27/01/2022 20:01

I raised concerns at DC's school that I couldn't opt them out of trans ideology (supplemental to mandatory teachings) videos which were disproportional in length to those about racism and same sex attraction and implied that how you dress could be interpreted that you are trans and terminology around being assigned a sex at birth.
I wanted to opt out of the ideology teachings until my currently prepubescent children had worked out about how they feel about their own bodies and sexuality whilst still appreciating that people can live their lives looking and dressing as they wish and that is their choice without any labels.
Unfortunately the school said they couldn't separate the ideology from same sex and racism element so I would have to opt out of all rather than just ideology, so that is what I had to do. They wanted me also to opt out of teaching of sexual intercourse lesson, which I argued I wanted them to be part of as it had consequences if they were at all unclear about how babies were made!! I think they are going to allow my dc to sit in that one now.

Helleofabore · 27/01/2022 20:08

I think (I may be wrong) you are presuming when I say 'they might not think it's an issue' what I really mean is 'I, personally, need convincing it's an issue'.

Ok. I am asking you, personally. How many will it be before you are convinced it is an issue?

Why not just one lesbian saying they have been coerced using these tactics, before you will say this is an issue to make sure no others are harmed?

And we know that it is happening, or are the women saying it is not to be trusted?

WorriedMumsDontSleep · 27/01/2022 20:08

That's awful @CheshireSuburbs. They should be working with you to ensure your child can access appropriate content.
Personally I would follow the schools complaints procedure.

SarahAndQuack · 27/01/2022 20:12

@Helleofabore

I think (I may be wrong) you are presuming when I say 'they might not think it's an issue' what I really mean is 'I, personally, need convincing it's an issue'.

Ok. I am asking you, personally. How many will it be before you are convinced it is an issue?

Why not just one lesbian saying they have been coerced using these tactics, before you will say this is an issue to make sure no others are harmed?

And we know that it is happening, or are the women saying it is not to be trusted?

I think it is an issue.

I'm not convinced it's an issue best solved by saying ok then, transwomen may not consider themselves to be women and may not use the word lesbian, is all.

In the same way, straight women are raped by men on a terrifyingly frequent basis, and I don't think we'd get far by saying 'ok, let's stop calling them "men", that will solve the whole problem right there.

mummykel16 · 27/01/2022 20:18

@nolongersurprised

sarah I agree that a 14 year old girl whose mother posts that “I think my daughter is gay” is prob a lesbian.

But - I’m not sure how posters who state “It could be a phase” can be vilified when, in one of your posts, who said that some of your students are lesbian, some are trans and some are still figuring it out.

Your students are 18-21. Why is it then bigoted against lesbians for some posters to not wonder if the (fictional) 14 year old is in that working it out category?

True.
Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 27/01/2022 20:26

*I think it is an issue.

I'm not convinced it's an issue best solved by saying ok then, transwomen may not consider themselves to be women and may not use the word lesbian, is all.

In the same way, straight women are raped by men on a terrifyingly frequent basis, and I don't think we'd get far by saying 'ok, let's stop calling them "men", that will solve the whole problem right there.*

But that is a false equivalence. Men is a scientific category. There is nothing about the concept of 'man' which inherently makes rape, coercion or assault OK. Attempts to make 'woman' a non-scientific ideological category and by so doing, dismantle the concept of lesbian to mean same-sex attracted is what has caused this issue. We need a word which describes same-sex attracted. Deal with it and stop questioning their right to exist.

Helleofabore · 27/01/2022 20:30

I'm not convinced it's an issue best solved by saying ok then, transwomen may not consider themselves to be women and may not use the word lesbian, is all.

Ok. I have seen some prominent academic transitioned males use the argument that if people see tw as women, then why would any transwoman be treated as anything other than a women.

Do you agree that transitioned males should always be treated as women?

Because using those two academics statements, it does indeed mean that those males feel entitled to attack females for not upholding their belief that they are lesbians.

Doesn’t this give them a sense of entitlement to make this claim and feel they are somehow righteous in their pressure, attacks and abuse?

And I want to be clear, I am sure many transitioned males do not think this. But there is enough that do. Therefore, the very definition of the word lesbian gives an extremist group the sense that they can do this. (And stonewall hasn’t called them out).

Hence the new definition is feeding down to the young lesbians and some (even if it is just a few) of them are already engaging in sex they feel they should have because the male is a lesbian too.

Language is a powerful thing.

Hence, when in school same sex relationships are discussed, some resources are using gender not sex.

Do you agree it is same sex or is it same gender for you? Are you happy that young lesbians believe it is same gender only and any deviation from that leads to social repercussions?

Lentil63 · 27/01/2022 20:33

Providing everything discussed is age appropriate and any further discussion is led by student questions then in my opinion anyone who objects is being unreasonable. Good for you with your attitude. X

mummykel16 · 27/01/2022 20:39

@Isaw3ships

‘They think the school are confusing their children.’ Telling children LGBTQ+ people exist doesn’t confuse anyone. It’s good, old fashioned homophobia claiming that kids might be ‘confused’. It’s parents not wanting a gay child.
Rubbish
Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 27/01/2022 20:42

@Lentil63

Providing everything discussed is age appropriate and any further discussion is led by student questions then in my opinion anyone who objects is being unreasonable. Good for you with your attitude. X
This would work had a violent minority of the population aggressively attacked people who asked questions - if the questions children are able to ask have been censored, then this does not lead to proper exploration of the issues and the impact of the ideologies.
Isaw3ships · 27/01/2022 20:43

‘It's not bigoted against anyone for any poster to wonder if a 14 year old is still working out their sexuality, whether they're gay or straight.’

Funny though, that when a girl has a crush on a boy or a boyfriend at that age no-one starts saying, it could just be a phase, maybe she’s gay and will actually grow out of this and settle down with a nice woman once she’s stopped ‘experimenting’…
The erasure of young gay teens sexuality is something they’ve always had to endure in a way that straight kids never have.

nolongersurprised · 27/01/2022 20:44

I don’t care if my child is gay. Sexuality is just who you like.

I don’t want my primary school aged child being taught about children being born into the wrong bodies, that toys and clothes are important signifiers for “gender” and that people can change sex.

LBG - fine
TQ - nope

nolongersurprised · 27/01/2022 20:51

The erasure of young gay teens sexuality is something they’ve always had to endure in a way that straight kids never have

This was the context of the post:

Sarah was saying that MN is lesbiphobic because she was saying that if a poster said “I think my 14 year old is gay” at least one reply would say “Maybe it’s a phase?”

I agree wholeheartedly that the 14 year old in this context is likely lesbian.

However, Sarah was also saying that she teaches adults (18-21) who are “still figuring it out”. Which is also ok, and also normal.

It follows though, that if it’s ok and normal for a 21 year old to be unsure, that some 14 year olds may also be genuinely unsure.

The (fictional) MNer didn’t say, “My 14 year old says she’s a lesbian, surely this is a phase?”