To think the NHS is screwed

[jaspercabbage]

Elderly relative had cancer related surgery before Christmas. The surgery went well but there has been no follow up appointment with an oncologist since. Recently they have taken ill again (clearly to do with the cancer) and have been to a&e four times in two weeks. They are treated for the sickness then sent on their way for the same thing to happen a few days later.

They were admitted again earlier in the week and have been stuck on a trolley, in a bay, in a&e for two nights now due to no beds in the hospital. This is an elderly person quite possibly now requiring end of life care and they can't even have their family with them. I just can't believe it's this bad.

I'm also due to have a baby later in the year, could be complications and to be honest I am shit scared about staff shortages and aftercare. What if something goes wrong in labour and there is nobody to deal with it at the time?

How can things have got to this point? The people are crying out for life going back to normal clearly haven't had to visit hospital lately. Although this is probably to do with a lot more than covid - underfunding, Brexit at so on.

Just a rant really but interested to hear other peoples thoughts.

You could chuck every penny this country has at the NHS and it still wouldn't be fit for purpose! It needs root and branch reform but not politician/party is brave enough to tackle it.

@aristotlesdeathray

YANBU

I'm at the point where I'd welcome a fully funded model like in the US

Having had hospital treatment in both the U.K. and US it's far superior In every way possible

The NHS we all knew and loved is dead, time we move on

You are deluded.

Unless your aim is for the UK to experience the joy of medical bankruptcy and to add that to our problems as a new cause of homelessness?

https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/nov/14/health-insurance-medical-bankruptcy-debt

@jaspercabbage

It's an absolute disgrace. We shouldn't have to have privately funded healthcare, we had a model that worked well and has been neglected and underfunded for years. Obviously covid hasn't helped but some of the scenes we are seeing now are heartbreaking.

I feel so awful for my relative who has been stuck on a&e for 48+ hours in their condition. It's horrible.

No we didn't. Treatment for cancer in "our" NHS is awful, and has been for decades. Patient outcomes are among the worst in the developed world.

The NHS has always been inferior to continental - style insurance based systems. Such as the ones they have in France, Switzerland, Germany and in Australia where they have basic public service combined with private insurance.

Increased private medicine is the only way forward that can result in a good quality service. But, since the cost of NHS keeps the demand for taxation so high, it's hard to see how a substantial number of people would be able to pay for both private insurance and still fund the bloated NHS. Something has to give.

yes it's probably underfunded but it's become an unholy, unworldly mess that you just couldn't try to unpick all the areas within the NHS to even start to find out what funding each area needs. Personally, I think that there are too many 'pen pushing' management with their 6 figure salaries dictating what happens in their departments when they have no working knowledge of what the job entails. Those management leaving and receiving massive golden handshakes etc. I think it needs a total independent overhaul but we'll never get one because whatever government is in Downing Street at the time will meddle and bribe and blackmail to get what they want from it. Money is being pumped into the NHS but it's not enough because it can't cater for the amount of people that need it, medication is proving to extend our lives but for what? more hideous illnesses/conditions that require more and more medication which then means more and more medication for the side effects of the original medicines, costing more and more money on an already drained and f*cked NHS. It is totally doomed.

When the system was designed, it was assumed that improving living standards, new housing etc. would reduce the amount of healthcare people needed. They failed to account for the resulting increase in lifespan and the healthcare demands that an aging population would put on the system. It's not fit for purpose.

@Wizzbangfizz

You could chuck every penny this country has at the NHS and it still wouldn't be fit for purpose! It needs root and branch reform but not politician/party is brave enough to tackle it.

How many times have we been promised this though? The NHS isn't fit for purpose. We could divert the entire nations GDP down the black hole of the NHS and it'd just gobble it up and hold its hand out for more.

No amount of re-organisation, re structuring audits or money is going to solve the fundamental problem. The NHS is based on an irrational premise and is bound to fail. That's why no other nation has attempted to copy this health care system.

@OnlyFoolsnMothers

I'm not sure this is true. I am not saying Labour are perfect, or are a perfect solution, but the only reason the NHS is still going to the extent it is is because of the investment that took place during the blair-brown era oh believe me I’d much rather a Labour government than a Torie- I’m just pointing out the crumbling nhs isn’t just down to one party. Labour lost 26000 beds, Tories cut a further 17000

Cutting beds is a misleading measure of investment. We have fewer beds per head of population than we used to but to some extent that's fine because getting people out of hospitals quicker as we do now is often the best option for their overall health - and surgeries nowadays are less invasive and require less recovery time (the same reason why we need less donated blood).

Yes we need more investment - we spend far less than comparable developed nations - but tracking beds isn't always the way to see progress.

@Elasmotherium

Again, the vast majority of Americans cope just fine with their model

A small portion of bankruptcies is a cost I'm willing to pay

As long as the Tories are in charge it is screwed they have been slowly dismantle it silently since Jeremy Hunt.

[quote aristotlesdeathray]@Elasmotherium

Again, the vast majority of Americans cope just fine with their model

A small portion of bankruptcies is a cost I'm willing to pay
[/quote]

500,000 medical bankruptcies are acceptable collateral damage for you?

What makes you so sure that wouldn't happen to you??

If you have long pockets you can go and pay for private healthcare right now. If not, then you are at much at risk as anyone else.

Anyone can get sick, at any time.

Anyone wishing for a US style system - be careful what you wish for. Look up some of the true cost of healthcare services - prescriptions, medications,supplies, surgical procedures and then imagine having to cover it yourself or persuade a recaltricant insurance company to pay for it.

Imagine having a job with no or limited medical cover and you or your child getting cancer. Or trying to get your child assessed for autism but your insurance first refusing to cover the cost as your child is over the age of 6 and then eventually agreeing to assessment in a named clinic hundreds of miles away, with you paying travel and accommodation costs plus $1500 excess (that's my friends true story).

The NHS has many problems. I don't believe it can continue in its current form, but please God let's not sleep walk into the American system with its medical bankruptcies and people dying because they can't afford treatment.

@james85

My ideas for improvement would be: 1) Some tax increases, we can't afford much more. 2) Concentrate on real health conditions. I think they have stopped tattoo removal but should stop similar and some of the super expensive fertility treatments. 3) Stop funding for extremely expensive drugs where others are available. 4) Put the responsibility for life-style back to the individual. If people smoke, take drugs, alcohol or are grossly obese tell them to change their behaviour and come back next year. Get better managers and fewer of them.

I would like to see more preventative care helping people who drink/ take drugs/ are obese before they get to the stage of needing hospital care. I think the smoking cessation that is offered at pharmacies is really good.

I don't think just refusing to treat them is a good idea as it'll create greater problems further down the line. Also I'd assume you'd still have to treat them as an emergency. I had a BMI of 31 and had a nasty break which required surgery. Would a doctor really tell me not for you fatty and then I'd have to wait until I got down to 29.9 by which point I assume stuff has healed badly and I've lost use of a wrist/ hand meaning I can't work and end up claiming benefits forever.

I do know someone who is grossly obese who fell and broke his collarbone recently. Really needed surgery but because so big they don't think his heart could take it. So it's been mashed together and he's been sent home with crossed fingers so perhaps care is a bit rationed already.

If this is all the fault of 'The Evil Tories' as some have suggested could one of you please give me an explanation of why the situation in Scotland is every bit as bad, if not worse. Health up here has been devolved for decades, the funding is higher, so what is the problem?

I do agree that a European style funding model would be better. I don't see any political will.for it though.

[quote aristotlesdeathray]@Elasmotherium

Again, the vast majority of Americans cope just fine with their model

A small portion of bankruptcies is a cost I'm willing to pay
[/quote]
The American system is almost always thrown up as a defence of the NHS. I'm talking about a continental-style insurance based healthcare system that actually delivers.

But personally I'd take the American system anyday over the appalling treatment that I and members of my family have suffered at the hands of "our" NHS. With the money that is pilfered from me to pay for the NHS, I could afford first class health care in the American system.

The NHS is absurdly expensive. There is a good reason why private health providers send you straight to the NHS, It's called "state monopoly", and it's a bad reason. It needs ending.

[quote aristotlesdeathray]@Elasmotherium

Again, the vast majority of Americans cope just fine with their model

A small portion of bankruptcies is a cost I'm willing to pay
[/quote]
Jesus what a horrible attitude.

The US has a lower life expectancy then us, despite being a rich country. I think the French system would be a better option.

@BigWoollyJumpers

The biggest issue is not "NHS" funding, or what most people fixate on which is funding for medical treatment and hospital care. The biggest issue is funding in social care. Something like 15-25% of beds are currently taken up by people who are basically well, not medically ill, opr in need of medical attention, could be discharged, but don't have support plans in place for discharge.

Actually it’s funding for both. Medical advances are happening all the time, if we want to benefit from these we need to pay for them.

@Atla

I do agree that a European style funding model would be better. I don't see any political will.for it though.

I fear you're right Atla. The NHS has become a cult.

What's wrong with the NHS and what is that the idea of the NHS is logically impossible.

Everyone can't have the same medical services if everyone doesn't pay. It's really that simple. This reality has to be faced. But for that to happen, we need a gov with the neccesary nerve to be so bold.

Population growth.
Aging population.
The demands of the population.
Extension of life at all costs.

All this plus I think ineffcient inflexible systems - family who regulary use NHS all have stories about massive inefficiencies, when things go wrong looking to blame individuals not improve system and getting close ranks in reponse from work force - ineffective often bullying management and burnt out staff.

I don't think US has a system anyone should copy as it's one of the most expenisve and covers least of population but many other countries do and I do think we should start to look at them.

I think there are many pockets of really good practise but whether you get one when needed is a down to luck - and long waiting lists thanks to covid and staff leaving are only going to make everything worse.

I've experienced a few countries' system and I think the NHS is best for the UK.

Incidentally Denmark does have the same system (in response to poster who thinks no other country would try it) and also has one of the best cancer survival rates in the world. It's due to early diagnosis not funding model. So basically redistributing money from treatment to diagnosis; they don't spend more money on cancer. The NHS is actually starting improving early diagnosis which is good news for us all. (other large countries in europe don't have an NHS funding system for other reasons, not simply because it's fundamentally a flawed idea)

Sorry for your relative though OP, it's an awful situation.

@Atla

Anyone wishing for a US style system - be careful what you wish for. Look up some of the true cost of healthcare services - prescriptions, medications,supplies, surgical procedures and then imagine having to cover it yourself or persuade a recaltricant insurance company to pay for it.

Imagine having a job with no or limited medical cover and you or your child getting cancer. Or trying to get your child assessed for autism but your insurance first refusing to cover the cost as your child is over the age of 6 and then eventually agreeing to assessment in a named clinic hundreds of miles away, with you paying travel and accommodation costs plus $1500 excess (that's my friends true story).

The NHS has many problems. I don't believe it can continue in its current form, but please God let's not sleep walk into the American system with its medical bankruptcies and people dying because they can't afford treatment.

I've lived with the US system for a few years

Still would take it over the NHS any day if the week

So I'm now paying even more than I did in the states for private cover here.

It's silly

@Andouillette

If this is all the fault of 'The Evil Tories' as some have suggested could one of you please give me an explanation of why the situation in Scotland is every bit as bad, if not worse. Health up here has been devolved for decades, the funding is higher, so what is the problem?

I'm in Wales - welsh labour have had control over NHS for over 20+ years here - it usually considered to be in worse situation than English NHS though not sure about funding.

I think schools in my LEA =- education also being under Welsh government control - actually have very low funding.

Untill it has a massive overhaul ,it doesn't matter how much money is thrown at the NHS nothing will ever change ,it drains money and nobody is ever held accountable for the huge amount of waste

@Andouillette

If this is all the fault of 'The Evil Tories' as some have suggested could one of you please give me an explanation of why the situation in Scotland is every bit as bad, if not worse. Health up here has been devolved for decades, the funding is higher, so what is the problem?

And here in Wales where it is also worse than England. Based on my experience here, I wouldn't trust Labour to run a bath.