To think the NHS is screwed

[jaspercabbage]

Elderly relative had cancer related surgery before Christmas. The surgery went well but there has been no follow up appointment with an oncologist since. Recently they have taken ill again (clearly to do with the cancer) and have been to a&e four times in two weeks. They are treated for the sickness then sent on their way for the same thing to happen a few days later.

They were admitted again earlier in the week and have been stuck on a trolley, in a bay, in a&e for two nights now due to no beds in the hospital. This is an elderly person quite possibly now requiring end of life care and they can't even have their family with them. I just can't believe it's this bad.

I'm also due to have a baby later in the year, could be complications and to be honest I am shit scared about staff shortages and aftercare. What if something goes wrong in labour and there is nobody to deal with it at the time?

How can things have got to this point? The people are crying out for life going back to normal clearly haven't had to visit hospital lately. Although this is probably to do with a lot more than covid - underfunding, Brexit at so on.

Just a rant really but interested to hear other peoples thoughts.

If the NHS isn't underfunded, does that mean that all the other European countries who spend so much more are just hugely profligate and giving everyone gold plated Bandaids?

[quote aristotlesdeathray]@Soontobe60

The vast majority of Americans manage it

We either need to strip it back and only offer emergency care as free at the point of service or move to a fully private model.

The NHS was never designed to operate how it is now, not without massive tax increases which will never happen [/quote]
I know Americans who've sat at home with appendicitis praying the antibiotics would work because they didn't have insurance or money for an Op.

I know someone get the bill for cleaning the ambulance because they gave birth in it.

I know a pediatrician who did work for nothing as she didn't want to watch a child stuffer. The parents collected buckets of berries as a thankyou for helping their child.

Be very careful what you wish for. Exactly the same as people who want to means test pensions.
Be very careful if the big tax payers are forced to fund their own care they'll happily cut the free stuff for everyone else.

The NHS needs more funding but private isn't the way forward

@LivingOnAnIsland

The NHS is massively inefficient. It is not underfunded, but it is extremely wasteful. It does not need more money, it needs to make better use of the money it has.

I agree with all of that Living, but you last point will never be brought about, because guaranteed revenue provides no incentive to perform well, and rationing provides an incentive not to treat the most ill.

A German - style insurance system would be an improvement, but almost any healthcare model would be better than the one we're saddled with.

@Imnotafemistbut, I agree that the standards are not as different as many people in the UK fear. But we do need a strong self-insurance sector (as in much of Europe) so that private hospitals don't confine their service to the easily fixed conditions and throw the really costly stuff back at the NHS. And it shouldn't be made difficult to get tests done and returned much faster: in France, almost every small town has a lab or two which processes standard tests in 24-72 hours but you take your sample along and deliver it personally rather than the health centre/hospital. I used to spend weeks in Beaucaire, which is one of the poorest, most multicultural small towns in the Gard, and remember three or four within a three minute walk of the nursing office -- which was itself a mini-private clinic; you could just walk in and be seen for routine injections or dressings, owned and run by the nurses themselves independent of a GP.

I’m an nhs nurse and regret clicking on this thread

I work in Scotland, but worked in England last year

The issues stem from way before covid, chronic underfunding and a lack of innovation. 11 years of Tory rule has made things far worse. However, I don’t have the energy to argue about it, plenty of tories say we are lucky to have a job etc etc.

The state of the NHS England is what we have allowed it to become, by voting in the Tories year in year out. The NHS in Scotland, although with many issues is so much better. I left England ready to give up my pin, I now see a future career for myself within nursing.

I of course have never voted Tory, but my hometown is a Tory heartland and it disgusts me

Be very careful what you wish for. Exactly the same as people who want to means test pensions.
Be very careful if the big tax payers are forced to fund their own care they'll happily cut the free stuff for everyone else

Utter BS. First off, there's no such thing as *free stuff". All that means is absurdly expensive at the point of payment.

Secondly: Why hasn't this happened in France, Germany, Switzerland, Australia or Canada where they have a combination of state and private health care? The poor all die on the way side whilst the rich are chauffeured to their Ritz hotel -like private hospitals?

The NHS will always fail regardless of how much money gets thrown at it. Because it is based on a logical impossibility, you can't get more out than is put in - its time has come. The way so many people seem so keen to put up with it, astounds me.

Tax payers in the USA also pay thousands a year for the free/subsidised care that is given to vagrants and retired people. Socialised health care costs the US tax payer over a trillion dollars a year, as well as the trillion they pay in insurance premium.

@Lockdownbear

Then they're in the minority

Over 91% of Americans are covered by health insurance

Agree. Time to move on from the NHS.

This week I have injured by neck. I tried to get a GP appointment, no luck there at all. I was offered a physio appointment in late feb.

After a week of self care and lots of painkillers later I tried 111 thinking I could get an urgent care appointment. They wanted to send an ambulance because I was describing head pain. I declined of course. I’m the end I was passed to 3 different staff on phone who didn’t really help other than give me Valium.

The NHS don’t care why my neck hurts and other reasons as to why it might be causing an awful week long headache. They just want me to go away with tablets.

Wouldn’t it have been cheaper to ask me to make my way to hospital. Give me an X-ray and refer me for physio/provide medicine as required. Instead I’ve spoken to lots of staff, been offered an ambulance and given gallium as a short term fix.

I have bupa but I’m very reluctant to let someone touch it (osteo/physio) until we know what we are dealing with? What if it’s a disc or nerve issue?

I don't understand people saying the NHS is inefficient as I thought it was in fact more efficient than most. The german system for example is run by not for profit organisations so they're obviously not motivated to make efficiencies similar to NHS. The public pay around 8% of their salary and employers pay slightly more. High earners can pay more to get supplementary insurance. So basically it's pricey. Works in germany because of the different employment/labour market. Wouldn't work here IMO because too many people are precariously employed, not only in their current contracts but also their disorganised training and lack of unions etc.

I can't see how we could afford an 8% cut in income tax plus the employer contributions to get the same as germany. My circle (under 40s, employed, professional in general) are on the bones of their arses due to housing and childcare costs. So cutting tax to pay for private healthcare just wouldn't be enough.

Also low income families, pensioners and chronically ill or disabled people could not surely be expected to pay their own premiums/copayments. So the taxpayer would end up funding this anyway.

Plus the benefits of NHS - staff training, research and procurement would all be gone which is where (I imagine) the efficiencies are.

[quote aristotlesdeathray]@Lockdownbear

Then they're in the minority

Over 91% of Americans are covered by health insurance [/quote]
Ok so fuck the other 9% who cares I'm all right Jack.

Stuff the fact you go laid of on Friday and that was the end of your insurance cover.
Is that what you really want?

@Lockdownbear

Yes

As it would be better for the vast majority of people

Why make everyone suffer substandard care when in an alternative model the majority can receive better care

@Hdkatznahtw125sgh

I’m an nhs nurse and regret clicking on this thread

I work in Scotland, but worked in England last year

The issues stem from way before covid, chronic underfunding and a lack of innovation. 11 years of Tory rule has made things far worse. However, I don’t have the energy to argue about it, plenty of tories say we are lucky to have a job etc etc.

The state of the NHS England is what we have allowed it to become, by voting in the Tories year in year out. The NHS in Scotland, although with many issues is so much better. I left England ready to give up my pin, I now see a future career for myself within nursing.

chronic underfunding There is no "underfunding". There is though chronic over spending. The NHS needs to simply stop whizzing other peoples' cash against the wall. Throwing yet more money at the hopeless NHS won't suddenly make it competent and efficient.

For several thousands of pounds per year, the NHS provides me with a service that's comparable to that provided in the US through free clinics and emergency rooms to the average vagrant. I can't see NHS "care" being any better with an unlimited budget.

Doesn't matter how much cash we chuck at5 it - The NHS will always hit the same barrier that awaits all socialist projects. It runs out of other people's money.

But why focus on the fundamental problem hen you can just generate hatred for the dreaded Tories?

.

[quote aristotlesdeathray]@Lockdownbear

Yes

As it would be better for the vast majority of people

Why make everyone suffer substandard care when in an alternative model the majority can receive better care [/quote]
Because that's the socialist way : drag everyone down to the lowest common unit in the name of "equality".

If the NHS adopted the USA model, it would be a question of “Credit card first before we treat you”

You would end up with haves and have nots

Be careful what you wish for and if the NHS sorted out the waste, that would help with some of the costs

NHS has its faults but it is better than some systems

It's very unfortunate if you are laid off, lockdownbear, but the reality of the US economy is that unemployment is very low and jobs are numerous so you are likely to be hired elsewhere quite soon.

[quote aristotlesdeathray]@Lockdownbear

Then they're in the minority

Over 91% of Americans are covered by health insurance [/quote]
So that's over 26 Million people (including children) with no health insurance.

And that's zero coverage since the 91% figure includes both private and public insurance schemes.

But as long as you're alright Jack...

@EngTech

If the NHS adopted the USA model, it would be a question of “Credit card first before we treat you”

You would end up with haves and have nots

Be careful what you wish for and if the NHS sorted out the waste, that would help with some of the costs

NHS has its faults but it is better than some systems

True. Last time I looked it was ranked 35th in the world. Ranking below Algeria, Mexico, Costa Rica and China in the efficiency of its healthcare provision.

@EngTech

If the NHS adopted the USA model, it would be a question of “Credit card first before we treat you”

You would end up with haves and have nots

Be careful what you wish for and if the NHS sorted out the waste, that would help with some of the costs

NHS has its faults but it is better than some systems

Paying for a GP visit is as reasonable as paying for food and rent, and it's absurd we've created an environment were so many people expect others to pay for them.

I'd take the German system over the NHS any day. Or the Swiss. Or the French. Or the Australian.

But these all cost more per capita than the NHS. Wherever the healthcare comes from it has to be paid for. And if your healthcare is provided by a marketised insurance based system those bureaucracies need their cut, which drives up costs without necessarily increasing quality.

It's past time for a proper conversation about what healthcare we want and need, and what we are prepared to pay for.

At the moment we're sleepwalking out of the NHS frying pan into the US fire. No-one has to do anything much for this to happen. No big policy decisions or public conversations, just more middle income people starting to use private provision and continual squeeze on the NHS. Look at dentistry, and think of the calamity this will bring to low income people with serious medical conditions.