To ask for ideas as to why nobody is hiring me?!

[GrumpyDirector]

Third sector, director level, 15 years experience. Strong CV and professional background (I think).

I’ve been applying for new jobs for about six months. I’m getting interviews with ease, and making it to the final interview (so, it comes down to two or three people) and I’m not getting the job. EVERY TIME.

I’m starting to lose my mind. I’m getting the interviews, so my applications are presumably good. I’m getting down to the final interview, so my interview technique is presumably good. All of the interview feedback is great (I keep not getting them by a ‘narrow margin’, allegedly), so not being given anything to work on.

So, what could it be?!! This has never happened to me before and it’s starting to make me feel rather shit. These are very high profile jobs and I understand that the competition is fierce, but it just happened for the tenth time! HELP!

@sanbeiji Good luck to your DH! I hope the new role works out.

@WhatAFusspot Racial bias (conscious or unconscious) is something that most POC have to factor into their working lives. I’m sure it’s very much the reason that I haven’t got one or two, and that’s pretty much what I’d expect. It’s irritating, but it is what it is.

@allfurcoatnoknickers Yes to all of those things! Including already being somewhere prestigious and the perception issues of being in the same role, with no progression, for more than five years.

@BowerOfBramble

if I’m turning 37 and being seriously considered for the same roles as people who have been doing this for 40 years, it’s a bit frustrating to have ‘experience’ batted at me. What experience I have is excellent, but it’s impossible for me to have had more of it

It sucks - been there - but that's not really their problem is it. It's a competition between you and the person with more experience (if that is what's behind this), not about them recognising that you've done all you can in the time available.

At some point very soon the experience/skills balance will work out in your favour. You clearly have massive drive too! You sound very cool.

I guess the only thing you can do is see if you can pick up BROADER experience where you are now - perhaps by volunteering in a different kind of charity/org, or by getting further training or secondments under your belt.

I was going to say this. They don't like experience just for the number on the page, it's what that gives the person.

It sounds like you are actually really competitive, so I think you should keep interviewing for these positions, but maybe also consider looking for something a little different.

OP, I interview people a lot. When it comes down to two or three v close candidates, it's usually determined by who the interview panel feel most connected and warmed to, and who would fit in the team. Admittedly, I work in an area where it's important for the candidate to have good people.skills and come across warm and approachable etc... but sometimes.i just can't connect with someone.

If you are interviewing on zoom, I'd have a think about how you can show your personality, and if there's anything which might be coming across a bit off-ish.

Recently I've interviewed a couple of candidates who were really good, said all the right things, excellent experience etc.... But one was a bit 'cold'/emotionally distant and the other a little arrogant on zoom. I'm sure in person they would've come across better....

Ps. I had a candidate recently who when I phoned to let her know the feedback, I told her how close she was, she was excellent, just missed out etc.... She told.me.she keeps coming 'second' and I really felt for her. Honestly she was really good and probably better skilled than the person we chose. But her personality just didn't come through in the interview. She seemed to be holding back and I built much better rapport with the other candidate. I explained to her that I'd love to have seen her personality more, for her to relax.into.the interview, let her guard down a.bit. I wonder if that would help.you?

[quote GrumpyDirector]@sanbeiji Size difference has varied, but let’s say between 20k national service users (where I am now) and 50k. The difference in scale isn’t massive - I’m not trying to move from a local charity to Greenpeace. My expectations are realistic, but I want to stretch.

One of the roles was actually for a much smaller charity, but I was looking to be Exec Director.

I have a lot of digital transformation experience that other candidates lack (looking at who they’ve hired, but also based on my awareness of the marketplace). I also have a very strong background in fundraising, leading successful comms teams and I’ve managed multiple award winning national campaigns. These are my strengths.

However, I haven’t been at Director level for anywhere near as long as some of the people they’ve gone with. I completely understand the ‘safe pair of hands’ thought process, but also - if I’m turning 37 and being seriously considered for the same roles as people who have been doing this for 40 years, it’s a bit frustrating to have ‘experience’ batted at me. What experience I have is excellent, but it’s impossible for me to have had more of it.

Yes to going through recruiters. As I said above, networking is a bit trickier now than it used to be before the world imploded, but I could definitely do more.[/quote]
Knowing the third sector well, that "resume" sound spike you've done many different things, but have run the risk of appearing as though you're not enough of an expert at any of the multiple areas you've chosen to work in in the past before moving on.
I understand the logic of that approach, but it gives off the vibe of short-term staying power and jack of all teades/master of none. Staying where you are, building on your experience, taking on more projects coils be a good move maybe?

@ChoiceMummy Not really. I’ve just spent quite a lot of my career at head of or Director level, which has involved managing multiple teams performing multiple functions.

And, again, these are hotly contested jobs. If I didn’t have the requisite experience, I wouldn’t be getting in the room, much less making it into the final two. So, yes, I might have less experience than some of the people they see, but if I’m ‘second best’ out of ALL the people that applied (most of whom will have been doing this for longer), then it seems unlikely I’m giving off a master of none vibe.

@ChristmasC It’s certainly something to consider! Thank you.

How broad is your experience? Is it possible that other candidates - and I agree in the third sector it's very likely internal candidates being appointed - have more experience pre-director role?

At 37 with 5 years at director level and a period of head of before that, it's quite likely that other candidates have not only more experience, but wider experience.

@AlexaShutUpnhas some great advice.

It must be frustrating to be getting stuck at this point though. The hard jump in theory should have been head of to director. The only other thing I’ve been wondering is whether there is a ‘gravitas’ thing - young ish woman coming against older man and then the panel just picturing the competition as more authoritative through unconscious (or conscious) bias. Should be less on zoom but things like height, deeper voice have an unconscious effect.

One of the best training I ever did was voice coaching. It shouldn’t matter but I feel like I hold a room and have much more personal presence after I did it. In some ways it was rubbish that everyone thought I needed it- ie had to unlearn being myself in a work context to get on.

@UpintNorth She really does!

@Bunnycat101 I agree with all this. One of the key differences between this experience and previous job hunts was that I was previously getting into a room with people - meeting IRL. I can ‘hold a room’ quite well, but I’m wondering how well I can ‘hold a Zoom’.

So, while I am authoritative l in person, I suspect that, on a computer screen, I’ve the gravitas of a three day old herring.

@camperqueen54

They think you will go off on maternity leave but no one will say that to you ever

This, every time.

I was part of an interview panel last week and we saw seven candidates, there had been more than 60 applications. What struck us all was a surprising lack of confidence amongst most of the people we interviewed. The one who was successful mainly stood out because she was confident in her abilities, gave examples when asked questions, and didn't downplay her experiences. it was a real lesson for me for my own future job interviews.

@feemcgee

I was part of an interview panel last week and we saw seven candidates, there had been more than 60 applications. What struck us all was a surprising lack of confidence amongst most of the people we interviewed. The one who was successful mainly stood out because she was confident in her abilities, gave examples when asked questions, and didn't downplay her experiences. it was a real lesson for me for my own future job interviews.

That's interesting but also frustrating. It shows how cocky, arrogant people often whizz to the top, while much abler but less egocentric colleagues can get overlooked. I wish confidence wasn't prized above and beyond other indicators of competence. It should be one component, not the driving one.

[quote GrumpyDirector]@Bunnycat101 I agree with all this. One of the key differences between this experience and previous job hunts was that I was previously getting into a room with people - meeting IRL. I can ‘hold a room’ quite well, but I’m wondering how well I can ‘hold a Zoom’.

So, while I am authoritative l in person, I suspect that, on a computer screen, I’ve the gravitas of a three day old herring.[/quote]
You've reminded me I saw some training available on adapting your I person presentation skills to video calls. If I find it I'll post the link, as I think I'd benefit from something similar

Being female is still a major problem in getting a job.
Only positive is to think that if they are so ignorant to not employ you as they can't see past your femaleness then you wouldn't want to work for them anyway.

@CloudPop That would be brilliant, thank you.

why don't you apply for a less senior position.
be more realistic and bide your time.
maybe they are interviewing you because they want to show that they are not discriminating, re sex, race, ?age, but always intended to appoint someone more experienced and probably male.
also many employers will avoid appointing women under age 45, and then say they are too old...
unfair, i know, but true when you hear employers talking candidly, including female ones.
good luck.

@alexdgr8 I’m already a director and looking to take the next step up, I’m not sure why I would want a less senior position?

If I’m making it to final interviews - not just interviews, then the step I’m looking to take isn’t unrealistic. I have absolutely no intention of settling for less than my capacity to deliver. I don’t think women or minorities should be advised to bide their time because the systems skews towards pale, male and stale. If we did, we’d achieve nothing.

Thank you for your well wishes.

@grumpydirector There is some interesting research on the tendency to hire women to senior positions when they can't 'get a man' to do it instead. Ie the average tendency is (still) to hire a man for a prestige position. But when you get further down the pecking order of what men would perceive to be desirable director jobs (ones where there is a higher chance of failure, ones which pay less or have less dazzle) you start to see women getting hired. I can think of quite a few senior women I know who had to take the 'shit' directorship first. Then they do some transformative work and everyone says how great they were all along!! Or unfortunately they fail, because of the shitness of the job and then their reputation is affected - which is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

There is also research about how women can successfully get senior jobs. One important factor is to have a male mentor who promotes you within their circles (so not just any old mentor - he has to have some clout already which means he is likely a senior director, white and 45+) and another one is to get the first directorship in the organisation you're already in, or one you're very familiar with, so you are more likely to succeed with everyone's support.

I don't know what the research says about ethnicity being part of this, but I expect it compounds it, sorry to say.

So all that is all extremely depressing. I fear what I am saying will ring true for anyone on this thread who knows about applying for senior level jobs in organisations.

However ... you should keep going. It is a huge amount of effort to do all of these pitches etc. But they are all good practice and one of them will come off. The really important thing is that when you get the job (which you will) you use your position in some way to try to tackle this culture in some way - big or small - whichever you have the energy to do.

Good luck and may the force be with you.

@nongnangning That all sounds about right, to me. Depressing, but definitely accurate.

I’m extremely ambitious for myself (I’m not MLK, I play because I like to win), but also because I think it’s really important that more women and minorities are in a position to challenge this sort of thing. And I very much try to support that and pay my success forward.

And, thank you!

Would you consider interim appointments? If so there are agencies out there who specialise in interim leadership. It's not for everyone but a way of quickly broadening your experience and has the added benefit of you being a front runner if the position becomes permanent. Orgs are also more likely to take a less experienced hire into an interim position.