To ask for ideas as to why nobody is hiring me?!

[GrumpyDirector]

Third sector, director level, 15 years experience. Strong CV and professional background (I think).

I’ve been applying for new jobs for about six months. I’m getting interviews with ease, and making it to the final interview (so, it comes down to two or three people) and I’m not getting the job. EVERY TIME.

I’m starting to lose my mind. I’m getting the interviews, so my applications are presumably good. I’m getting down to the final interview, so my interview technique is presumably good. All of the interview feedback is great (I keep not getting them by a ‘narrow margin’, allegedly), so not being given anything to work on.

So, what could it be?!! This has never happened to me before and it’s starting to make me feel rather shit. These are very high profile jobs and I understand that the competition is fierce, but it just happened for the tenth time! HELP!

Are you a fundraiser looking for a CEO role? If so, this is what happens but don’t give up! A mentor is a great idea. Sorry this is happening. Get some more speaking experience at conferences etc, that does seem to help, if you’ve not done much like that.

@Blueberryflavour

Cross posted about the age thing okay you’re in your thirties. I hate to say it but they may assume you are desperate for babies and will go off on maternity leave. Outdated views of women in the workplace are bloody depressing.

This tbh

Honestly, it’s the fact you’re married, in your 30s and don’t have children. Happened to me. Was more qualified than many others. I was always told that the other candidate was a better “fit”. In that they were male.

Ah, I sympathise. I spent much of 2020 going through the same - applying for "next step up" roles and doing a good interview, yet missing out at the last minute.

I figured that somebody else's experience was pipping me to the post every time, and tried to block out the fact that it was always a man.

I'm late 40s but look a bit younger, so it's possible that the boards consisting of overwhelmingly older men who'd known each other for years couldn't envisage me in the role, or thought I wouldn't be tough enough.

I have now scored that c-suite role - in a firm which isn't a start-up exactly, but started small and is now expanding into other areas. So all of us on the board have the right experience, but we're in the same boat of learning as we go.

The main difference is that the co-owners and other directors are a mix of rich non-white foreign nationals and wealthy women. None of them hold anything like the outdated old-man "values" and belief system, and I was selected because I have the right non-combative personality for the firm's gentle culture, as well as plenty of practical knowledge from years in the industry.

They value integrity, intelligence and professionalism above board experience (luckily for me). I'm not naive, I realise I'm malleable and at risk of being influenced, so I keep my eyes open and challenge - politely, that's important here - when I need to.

Keep your eyes peeled and ears open, an opportunity with a young firm with a non-traditional board might crop up!

I don't suppose you're in Ops are you...

@Waferbiscuit

Wanted to say how much harder it gets for women applying for jobs post 35. From age 20 to 35 I was offered almost every job I applied for. After 35 and esp after 40 it was almost impossible to get offered a job. Nuts.

Same, and like OP I am 3rd sector leadership. I finally got my step up when my family was complete but by taking a job I wouldn't have considered before.

Now I have kids I have never been more on it at work - I have to be, no wasted moment and I bring a new maturity to leadership. I'm at my best... but less employable.

There is a study which found women over 35 are rejected by recruiters. This doesn't apply to you as you get interviews. It could be a factor though.

Why are looking for a new role and what was longevity of previous roles?

I agree with pp it's your age, and also the tendancy of white middle men in c suite wanting mirror images of themselves in those roles. Doesn't matter how many 'unconscious bias' training courses you force people on, it won't change unless they are forced with quotas. I am mid 40s, female and not white. Finally got a snr level job but when I got it I had to laugh because it turns out I fulfilled a quote and my boss got 2 points (one for non white and one for female). I don't think they would have hired me if I wasn't qualified but I'm also pretty sure they would have hired a white male if they hadn't had quotas.

You said you're a woman in her 30s, and younger than others by about 20 years? And that it's nearly always gone to an older, white male?

I think it's not you, it's them. There's the potential about pregnancy/maternity leave, obviously unspoken, and you probably just don't look how they imagine the person to be. If the role has always been filled by older, more experienced white men, it's much easier for them to see how an older, white, experienced male could do the role successfully.

You get through the rest of the process because you have skills/knowledge/experience presumably - but the last stage is also about the personal fit. And that's where the unconscious bias of the recruiter will make the difference. You asked what the missing edge was - it's being white, male and older.

It doesn't mean that there's no hope, but could you look for a more progressive, less traditional company?

I'm self-employed now but before that I held a senior position in an industry which was almost completely dominated by men, and my level was pretty much 100% white men who were 20 years+ older than me. I fell into the position accidentally as I was asked to create a technical department and then ended up leading it. It was quite frustrating to have to constantly deal with the expressions of surprise that I was the person in that role at conferences etc. I have a unisex name and I think people assumed that I was an (older) man. I was good at what I did but I had to prove myself ten times over to others to be taken seriously. Just....sigh.

I know the third sector very well. Agree with the person who suggested internal or known candidate

I work in the 3rd sector now.

Depressing as it sounds it it likely to be unconscious bias / deliberate discrimination. For all of the edi conversation/ policies/strategies there is a lot of this about.

Have you tried organisations with a female focus (eg women’s aid etc)? And organisations with female heavy boards?

Lock down your social media, remove any mention of husband and kids from linked in, take off your wedding ring and practice “I live in x” instead of “we live in x” for general chit chat.

It’s worth doing a bit of networking/name dropping too. It’s likely that the older white men have other older white men in common which makes them a safer bet as they are “known”.

It’s shit but it’s much more common the higher up you go 🙁

This is very depressing but I believe other posters have hit the nail on the head.
They are looking for a mirror image of themselves.
I have posted this before but I was turned down for a promotional role because I was pregnant.
The 2 white males who interviewed me told the female manager ( who was on mat leave at the time) this. She said of course they can't legally say this. They chose a younger, single attractive woman over me. they kept asking me how my husband would feel looking after our child whilst I was at work, bloody awful. I did end up getting the role as when the manager came back off mat leave she employed me. I ended up training the young woman who had been given the role even though the men who employed her said she "Didn't need any training at all" and that was why they chose her.
One of these men who was married also happened to be screwing another very attractive young employee. That caused a huge stink too.

Are you networking? At conferences etc?

It could be those things and it could also be that if there is a choice between someone who has had CEO level experience and the OP. Or someone who has had 15 years' experience vs 10.

How long have you stayed in each of your roles? How much of a reach are these current next level jobs? Are you working at the moment?

It's the babies thing. I've not got an external role in years, always get interviews, always come top two or three at interview. They always hire a man (sector at my level is dominated by people in their thirties and forties so it's not experience). I've taken my wedding ring off, I've taken my years off application forms (and then been asked to put them on by HR).

The last role I went for they hired a bloke the same age who then went on paternity leave followed by a long period of unpaid leave after a couple of months. Hats off to him.

To add a different perspective, I’m also in third sector leadership and have been doing a fair amount of senior level recruitment (thanks Covid fallout). Of course it depends on your specialism but I’ve found “the edge” tends to be less about age and gender and more specific eg track record or demonstrable interest in a similar cause, experience of similar types of organisation /experience from a completely different type of organisation (eg private sector). It might also be that, given the impact of Covid, people are playing it a bit safe and less inclined to go for a stepper-upper. I should add that my last 2 workplaces have had 50-50 or at least 60-40 men to women on SMT. Keep plugging away though and good luck!

They’ve also tended to hire old white men, but I’m choosing not to think it’s that. As then I really will go mad

Well there you are then! You're a young female so can't possibly be up to the job, no matter what your CV says.

I hate that we all have to buy j to this "take off your wedding rings" shit. Utterly depressing.

I'm 37 and was searching for a new job last year. I actually dropped it into interviews that my children were in their teens and there were no plans for any more. How sad is that!

I second talking to a mentor, I think that's a really good idea.

Agree with the other posters here. In fact I popped on to see if you were a 30 something female. Yep.

It's shit but a real thing.

There are ways to get around it. Take the rings off (if any), make some comment in the interview about being very career driven and even drop in that family and children have never been a priority as you're very work focused and love to travel or something.

It can all be bollocks of course. You can go on maternity leave whenever you want. Things change.

It SHOULDNT be like this. You shouldn't need to do this. It's a horrible position to be put in where you pretend to deny yourself fundamental rights but you won't catch them on it and they might even be unaware of their bias. So play the game and see if it works. Then ultimately do as you please - as you should - with your reproductive system.

Of the roles are going to older men it could be the case that they are more experienced. Now personally I don’t think that means they can do the job better, but if the panel are playing it safe it’s what they will often go with.

Irritating as hell, unfair - but not your fault.

It might be any of the things that have been mentioned above. Or it might just be that you're currently at director level, looking to move up, and the number of roles at the level that you're seeking is inevitably much smaller than the field that you were looking at the last time you "stepped up". It might not be anything you're doing "wrong" but just a numbers game. Keep trying. You'll get there.

In the meantime, if you're looking at senior roles in the third sector, you might want to look at volunteering as a trustee in order to get some board level experience.

Based on this I think it is because you are a 30 someone woman.

Have you thought about adding a NED role to expand your experience and your own network?

Most likely your age

Your skill set is most likely not unique, I'm betting they will have younger candidates with similar experience just not as much time served and go with them.

It could also be experience type, many businesses are going through digital transformations for example, the other candidates might be from business where they've managed this through, or other such situations

@Zodlebud

Honestly, it’s the fact you’re married, in your 30s and don’t have children. Happened to me. Was more qualified than many others. I was always told that the other candidate was a better “fit”. In that they were male.

It's ridiculous isn't it?;imagine living in a world where you can transfer part or all of your maternity leave to your partner or where it's perfectly normal for a man to be a SAHP or for 2 full time working parents to use a nursery/childminder/family member for childcare and share equal responsibility for time off for child sickness...........oh wait;we do live in that world.

I reckon we're still 2 or 3 decades away from this sexist crap being filtered out of the work place unfortunately.

When I first interviewed for my last job at 31;I was asked if I was planning anymore children and how old mine were/if they were in F/T school.

I think I was only hired to fill a quoter;I was the only female over 21 with children in my team.

Going for a job now I'd probably be considered desirable as I'm late 30's,my kids are all teenagers and I've been married for nearly 2 decades as this signifies I won't be having more kids or need childcare as the kids are much older.

I think if you are applying for jobs that are a bit of a reach and have only been at it 6 months then you likely aren’t doing anything wrong at all.

People are less likely to take chances on women than men (sad but true) and can always justify it on the other candidate having more experience even if you are nailing every aspect of the process (which from feedback sounds like is happening). Keep on applying and it will pay off.