To ask for ideas as to why nobody is hiring me?!

[GrumpyDirector]

Third sector, director level, 15 years experience. Strong CV and professional background (I think).

I’ve been applying for new jobs for about six months. I’m getting interviews with ease, and making it to the final interview (so, it comes down to two or three people) and I’m not getting the job. EVERY TIME.

I’m starting to lose my mind. I’m getting the interviews, so my applications are presumably good. I’m getting down to the final interview, so my interview technique is presumably good. All of the interview feedback is great (I keep not getting them by a ‘narrow margin’, allegedly), so not being given anything to work on.

So, what could it be?!! This has never happened to me before and it’s starting to make me feel rather shit. These are very high profile jobs and I understand that the competition is fierce, but it just happened for the tenth time! HELP!

Op not easy. I was garda vetted then Principal took someone on he knew. Its really disheartening. Well done on your interviews

Have you asked them for feedback?

Maybe it could be:

• are you in a job at the moment? unfortunately some employers prefer to employ people who are already in employment
• are there gaps on your CV that an employer could be concerned about?
• are you confident when delivering presentations?
• could it be a bias of some kind that you are being a victim of: race, background, gender or age. If you are in your 30s maybe they are wondering if you will want to have children...
• Also have you held a director post for long with a big charity (not just small organisations)? if you are against candidates with more experience this might be the reason. You say you have 15 years experience but how long in a director post leading multiple teams/projects?

Also, if you work in the 3rd sector you will need a broad range of skills, including having fundraised successfully for previous charities and brought in a lot of money. That I think is always going to win it for any CEO/Board members: candidates who have turned charities around or who brought in a lot of cash to help them expend.

Charities are just like businesses these days. If you don't have these skills then try to get more fundraising and financial management experience/knowledge.

Honestly I was coming here to say it's got to be ticking-baby-clock related but I can see others have pointed that out. I agree with a previous poster, dress older, mention your love of travel. It's hard to get across but 'I don't want children' is going to be hard to drop into an interview but I honestly think that's what's doing this. It breaks my heart to say but boards can't stop recruiting middle aged, white men because it's all they've ever known. There's a lot to be said about them recruiting in their own image, so they see you and think 'she's not as good as me because she's not like me'. Sob.

@rosiebl I am also very ‘young looking’, which probably doesn’t help. And Asian. So, yeah. ☹️

@CharmingScene I’m not trying to make a case for discrimination, though. And, as I am already at director level, I’m aware of what it entails. I’m clearly not wildly underqualified for the roles I’m seeking if I’m making it into the final two.

I don’t see why anyone should have to justify being ambitious. I want to move ‘up, up, up’ and - frustrating though the current experience has been - I’m quite confident I will. If that’s not a career path that interests you, that’s fine, as well.

And, thank you. Interview prep is exhausting.

OP what’s the size difference between the charities? What ‘sort’ of experience did the other candidates have?
Directorship at smaller orgs is often quite different from large orgs, especially in terms of workplace politics.

Rather than maternity discrimination being a reason ‘not’ to hire you. What reason is there ‘to’ hire you over someone who on paper has more experience etc? What can you bring to the role over them?

Because it’s a stretch role getting the job is a bit of luck. At your level there’s a lot more volatility and needing someone to believe in you, to really want you. It’s not like lower levels where jobs and promotions come easy, you really have to slog and the stars align.
Have you tried going through recruiters, networking in the industry, getting into advisory committees etc?

Don't suppose you're in policy are you OP? I've dying for staff! Though not quite at Director level.

Also to add this is obviously in my own experience/Industry.
It’s quite easy to be promoted to middle management, but after that whom you know. There have been people hired/promoted at 36, others at 45+ same ability.

I’ve never heard of anyone just applying for more senior jobs , blind. They’re normally recommended or known by people. That’s why we’re advised to build our network before we need it.

@sanbeiji Size difference has varied, but let’s say between 20k national service users (where I am now) and 50k. The difference in scale isn’t massive - I’m not trying to move from a local charity to Greenpeace. My expectations are realistic, but I want to stretch.

One of the roles was actually for a much smaller charity, but I was looking to be Exec Director.

I have a lot of digital transformation experience that other candidates lack (looking at who they’ve hired, but also based on my awareness of the marketplace). I also have a very strong background in fundraising, leading successful comms teams and I’ve managed multiple award winning national campaigns. These are my strengths.

However, I haven’t been at Director level for anywhere near as long as some of the people they’ve gone with. I completely understand the ‘safe pair of hands’ thought process, but also - if I’m turning 37 and being seriously considered for the same roles as people who have been doing this for 40 years, it’s a bit frustrating to have ‘experience’ batted at me. What experience I have is excellent, but it’s impossible for me to have had more of it.

Yes to going through recruiters. As I said above, networking is a bit trickier now than it used to be before the world imploded, but I could definitely do more.

@Useranon1 Not a policy bod, unfortunately!

[quote GrumpyDirector]@sanbeiji Size difference has varied, but let’s say between 20k national service users (where I am now) and 50k. The difference in scale isn’t massive - I’m not trying to move from a local charity to Greenpeace. My expectations are realistic, but I want to stretch.

One of the roles was actually for a much smaller charity, but I was looking to be Exec Director.

I have a lot of digital transformation experience that other candidates lack (looking at who they’ve hired, but also based on my awareness of the marketplace). I also have a very strong background in fundraising, leading successful comms teams and I’ve managed multiple award winning national campaigns. These are my strengths.

However, I haven’t been at Director level for anywhere near as long as some of the people they’ve gone with. I completely understand the ‘safe pair of hands’ thought process, but also - if I’m turning 37 and being seriously considered for the same roles as people who have been doing this for 40 years, it’s a bit frustrating to have ‘experience’ batted at me. What experience I have is excellent, but it’s impossible for me to have had more of it.

Yes to going through recruiters. As I said above, networking is a bit trickier now than it used to be before the world imploded, but I could definitely do more.[/quote]
Fair enough - keep at it and good luck.
If it helps DP has had a similar experience. Done lots more stuff than someone of his age, great at interviews.
But they won’t pay much more than his current salary… because ‘experience’. When other people could have spent 5 years in a stagnant role, doing the same thing day in day out. But no that’s deemed as more ‘experienced’.

It’s taken him a while but he’s found a couple of companies which will pay his asking salary. Hopefully he gets an offer but it’s taken months, loads of his time and I’ll be glad when it’s over!

*5 more years obviously he has more than 5 years experience

It's shocking but probably being female AND Asian goes against you more than being female and white.

I've got a couple of super clever, super ambitious professional Asian friends and they are fantastic at what they do. But I do know that one in particular says she feels she needs to be 10x better than her white counterparts. Depressing.

She now runs her own extremely successful business so is the boss.

Good luck

@DinaDirvla

Ah, I sympathise. I spent much of 2020 going through the same - applying for "next step up" roles and doing a good interview, yet missing out at the last minute.

I figured that somebody else's experience was pipping me to the post every time, and tried to block out the fact that it was always a man.

I'm late 40s but look a bit younger, so it's possible that the boards consisting of overwhelmingly older men who'd known each other for years couldn't envisage me in the role, or thought I wouldn't be tough enough.

I have now scored that c-suite role - in a firm which isn't a start-up exactly, but started small and is now expanding into other areas. So all of us on the board have the right experience, but we're in the same boat of learning as we go.

The main difference is that the co-owners and other directors are a mix of rich non-white foreign nationals and wealthy women. None of them hold anything like the outdated old-man "values" and belief system, and I was selected because I have the right non-combative personality for the firm's gentle culture, as well as plenty of practical knowledge from years in the industry.

They value integrity, intelligence and professionalism above board experience (luckily for me). I'm not naive, I realise I'm malleable and at risk of being influenced, so I keep my eyes open and challenge - politely, that's important here - when I need to.

Keep your eyes peeled and ears open, an opportunity with a young firm with a non-traditional board might crop up!

I don't suppose you're in Ops are you...

Gosh I’d like to work there ! Sounds like the culture is important and the people they are hiring are brought in to enhance and grow that - which is so far from my experience in my role !

OP - do keep going and asking for feedback each time. I like the idea put forward of a mentor too - it supports you but also shows commitment to your ambition and that you are willing to reflect and learn . Good luck.

Could it be a cultural fit?

When it comes down to the last stages, often recruiters will ask if you are a good fit in the company. Could it be worth looking at trying different industries?

I know for example despite twenty years experience in administration, I would never be hired in a corporate banking role as you can tell I am creative.

if I’m turning 37 and being seriously considered for the same roles as people who have been doing this for 40 years, it’s a bit frustrating to have ‘experience’ batted at me. What experience I have is excellent, but it’s impossible for me to have had more of it

It sucks - been there - but that's not really their problem is it. It's a competition between you and the person with more experience (if that is what's behind this), not about them recognising that you've done all you can in the time available.

At some point very soon the experience/skills balance will work out in your favour. You clearly have massive drive too! You sound very cool.

I guess the only thing you can do is see if you can pick up BROADER experience where you are now - perhaps by volunteering in a different kind of charity/org, or by getting further training or secondments under your belt.

Honestly I think you just need to work more years at current level.

You have 30 more years to work. You aren't going to spend 29 of them at the top level? What's the rush? You will get to that job, it might just require patience.

Oh and "time served" isnt always that. Extra years simply mean you have seen more. Been in more situations. Therefore been more likely to have encountered a particular situation/risk/type of person before & therefore will be better prepared to manage it.

I had experiences like this in my 30s and switched from third sector to education and was hired pretty much immediately. I suspect there are a lot of decent candidates per vacancy in third sector.

But you sound great so (although the prep is a pain) maybe the next one will be the one. Your responses on this thread have been very gracious.

But do think laterally as there are definitely sectors with a lot fewer decent candidates.

Urgh - i've just been called to a final interview. I really want it as well.

I think I will go without my rings, and I will mention my 'getting older' children. At 2 and 5 they are definitely getting older by the day!

I would assume it's your age unfortunately.
1 - Remove anything below university from your CV
2 - Take off your rings or turn them around so they look less like a wedding/engagement ring
3 - Dress older than you look, take a look in public and see how 40 somethings are dressing, that's the look you want to go for.
4 - If asked about interests, you love to travel, cook and knit (anything older/childless women generally like doing)

It feels like you’re the ‘might take a chance’ candidate losing out to experienced directors. r that level, I imagine there are people downgrading from the big national charities as well given the current climate who you’ll be competing with. Do you need experience of the bigger organisations to take the move from a small to a medium one?

I work in the same sector, similar level. I doubt it's an age thing; my last job offer came through on my 60th.
Are you applying for roles directly, or via an agency?
If it's a consultant you get to know well, they can work in your favour, being quite pushy "selling you" - and it's often a way of getting more useful feedback too.
Recruiters may feel more comfortable talking to a third party at the agency rather than the unsuccessful candidate directy, plus if they've had a fruitless round of interviews, being honest about why the candidates they saw didn't seem a good fit may help the agency come up with someone that better meets the brief.
Of course, frustrating, but it may just be that they have a choice between two good candidates and you're being pipped at the post.
Good luck.

NRFT have you moved around a lot?.That could be something worth considering.

OP I am in the exact same position and it's so frustrating. I'm 35 and I've been Director of a fundraising team for 4.5 years. Trying to move and I also keep getting down to the last 2 and then not getting any further. It's exasperating.

I'm already somewhere big and prestigious and if anything that seems to count against me . Interviewers can't fathom why I'd want to leave, and keep needling me for some shady reason when there isn't one.

I feel like I need more experience, but in my line of work there's also a stigma against being in one role too long. Anything more than 5 years and people start looking at you askance. Feels like being stuck between a rock and a hard place...

No advice, just solidarity.