To ask for ideas as to why nobody is hiring me?!

[GrumpyDirector]

Third sector, director level, 15 years experience. Strong CV and professional background (I think).

I’ve been applying for new jobs for about six months. I’m getting interviews with ease, and making it to the final interview (so, it comes down to two or three people) and I’m not getting the job. EVERY TIME.

I’m starting to lose my mind. I’m getting the interviews, so my applications are presumably good. I’m getting down to the final interview, so my interview technique is presumably good. All of the interview feedback is great (I keep not getting them by a ‘narrow margin’, allegedly), so not being given anything to work on.

So, what could it be?!! This has never happened to me before and it’s starting to make me feel rather shit. These are very high profile jobs and I understand that the competition is fierce, but it just happened for the tenth time! HELP!

@Crazykatie

You’re in you’re 30s, you haven’t said if you intend to have children, they are going to assume you will which means time off for maternity, plus child related issues for the next possibly 20 yrs. There are many director level jobs that can cope with this any many that can’t, so they will play safe and appoint a man or woman that is less likely to have limitations to their time. If the job is going to mean meeting clients at fixed appointments, or managing staff day to day, they expect you to be there, not take a day off because a child is ill. On the other hand, if it’s finance or accounts that can be done from home it may not be an issue.

Don’t think they won’t know quite a lot about your personal
circumstances, they would know from your references and other easily available online research. At your age changing jobs is risky a friend who was a director, had a child, the company was taken over and she was made redundant, never did find an executive position again.

Put yourself in their shoes, would you choose a candidate that is likely to start a family and take extended leave soon after starting the job, or a candidate who is either male, or female with older children or none. It’s not about qualifications it’s about who can do the job best.

Insanity. Sheer insanity. People who are capable enough to be directors at that age are extraordinarily skilled. Just because of the potential to ‘have children’ they shouldn’t work? ‘Child related issues fr the next 20 years’ are you **ing kidding me

Tbh with shared parental leave I dont think it will become a woman thing.

Employers won't want men in a particular age bracket either.

I didnt say I wouldnt have hired someone, but no one actively wants to disrupt their business. In the same say i wouldnt want to hire (for example) an over qualified candidate who was likely to leave very fast.

No one is saying women of this age shouldnt work!

They are saying that it's a time period where if you seek to move employer this is one factor which may make you temporarily less attractive as a candidate.

Agree with others, it could be your age. I'm mid-30s and if I have an interview anywhere I'd honestly be tempted to mention my hysterectomy. It shouldn't be like this, but given that I'm not getting any of the 'benefits' (i.e. children), I'm pretty keen not to be saddled with the disbenefits!

Sorry OP, that doesn't help you.

We had a run at my work of both male and female candidates applying for (and getting) promotions and pay rises, only to go on leave 6m later then repeat the process 2 years later. It gets so difficult to manage the workload - the rest of our (majority female) team, me included, had to manage so many transitional staff, new people always take a few weeks to get the hang of systems etc.

No one bedgrudges men or women parental leave but ime organisations tend to resent it more when someone hasn't been there long. If an employee is only with you 3.5 years and spends two of them on maternity leave, the employer bears the brunt of a large expense for relatively low return.

Also found this op - I used to get nearly every job I applied for! Now I’m getting the interviews, third round, and then not getting the job. I’m 36.

I'm 37 and was searching for a new job last year. I actually dropped it into interviews that my children were in their teens and there were no plans for any more. How sad is that!

I did this in my last job too at 28. "Oh my kids are much older now, could never start all over again!" Also hinted I was a single parent but had multiple family members to step in for childcare. The boss gave me a knowing smile and I got the job offer that night.

It's shit but what can you do?! Well, except have kids before you start your career I guess 🤷🏻‍♀️

That's just tough tit though isn't it @OfstedOffred. I've worked with people who are appointed to lead a department and then go off on some kind of career development placement for 6 months or a year. People get sick (older people more so, perhaps the employers should think about potential cancer and heart risks employing men over 50). Humans are squishy and made of meat that sometimes goes wrong. Humans also rely on this messy process to continue the race that involves individual women undergoing temporary loss of earnings, physical discomfort and danger. The fact that employers and colleagues have to put up with change or a bit is just... unavoidable.

I have a beloved family member who used to think like you - she has since admitted that when she broke her own rules and employed women who went on to have babies, or who already had tiny kids, they were the most efficient and best staff she ever had. I expect they paid for any "inconvenience" a thousand times over by being great at their jobs.

@camperqueen54

They think you will go off on maternity leave but no one will say that to you ever

Yep. This. They can't say it but they can't help thinking it and choosing the 'edge' of a middle aged man who won't get pregnant. Glass ceiling.

I hate to say it, but it is very likely to be the child/maternity possibility. In my last role in HR before owning a business we had a a new starter who was already pregnant (not disclosed). She was on and off work for the time until she left on maternity as she was unwell, she probably worked 2 whole months in total. She took extended maternity and came back pregnant, worked a few weeks and went off on maternity leave. She again came back pregnant and went on maternity. None of this is either her problem or her fault, she shouldn't have to hold back on her life for a job or her entitlements. I know for a fact though it did put old manager off hiring women of a certain age even if he didn't voice this opinion or put any pressure on the pregnant colleague to leave or return. It shouldn't be this way but sadly it is (even if its hidden under the surface).

Could be age and - as others have said - a presumption that you'll get the job then disappear on mat leave for months. Depressing, but true.

Are you married? Do you have kids already?

Can you ask what gave the other candidate the edge, so it's something you can work towards in the future.

I'd hate it to be that you're not an older white male, but even if they're not concisely making the decision because of that I think I may be.

At least asking them might make them think about why.

I just had a feedback call from the last one. Chair of the Board of Trustees. She, and a range of others, interviewed me for the role. Lovely woman, late fifties/early sixties, and hopefully not on MN, as this would be quite outing.

“Excellent presentation, preparation, intelligence, personality and personal style. We had no doubt you’d be able to do the job. The other person had the edge because they had more experience, and would be able to hit the ground running, otherwise we would have been very happy to appoint you. You were a strong second choice. Keep on doing exactly what you are doing and you should have a very bright future.”

Of the experience thing, she said “and just know that we’ve all been in the same position.”

So, nothing to work on other than…ageing?

@monotonousmum Experience, apparently. However, I’m clearly experienced enough to be a second choice and there’s always going to be someone with more experience, so I’m a bit stuck.

I will be keeping an eye on this. If the person they chose is an older white male, it’ll be too depressing. I don’t want this to be about discrimination, I really don’t. I’d much rather it was because I was shite at XYZ - I can at least fix that.

@GrumpyDirector

I just had a feedback call from the last one. Chair of the Board of Trustees. She, and a range of others, interviewed me for the role. Lovely woman, late fifties/early sixties, and hopefully not on MN, as this would be quite outing.

“Excellent presentation, preparation, intelligence, personality and personal style. We had no doubt you’d be able to do the job. The other person had the edge because they had more experience, and would be able to hit the ground running, otherwise we would have been very happy to appoint you. You were a strong second choice. Keep on doing exactly what you are doing and you should have a very bright future.”

Of the experience thing, she said “and just know that we’ve all been in the same position.”

So, nothing to work on other than…ageing?

That is the HARDEST thing to work on -- it was certainly a problem for me for a time.

I countered it a bit by working with mentor programmes Women on Boards, Women in the City, and places like THRIVE and taking on consultancy work in addition to my main role.While it was a bit of hell to multitask, I think it sped up the process of "gaining experience" quite a bit!

@StillWalking Married, no kids, don’t want them. None of which I discuss in interviews, but I suppose that I am very visibly a thirty something woman wearing an engagement ring and a wedding ring.

@GrumpyDirector just keep going them - with no experience in a director role it is going to take a while to break in. But keep trying and you'll get there - in one of these companies they'll like you more than the experienced guy, or you'll be the one that just has the edge.

But definitely keep an eye on it - especially the experience of the people that are getting the roles. Also...look at where these people were before - it's likely someone has just filled that role, but it might not be working out.

If you don't want kids, you're in a similar position to me i.e. you're not getting the 'benefits' of being treated like this (kids) so you really shouldn't be saddled with the disbenefits. I'd start mentioning that you've never wanted kids and a bonus to that is that you have plenty of time to pursue [insert interesting hobby here].

@monotonousmum I have just shy of four years of director level experience, prior to which I was ‘head of’ for about five years. I’m essentially trying to move to a director level role in a larger charity or an Exec Director role in a charity of similar size/scope. So, next level, but not just trying to break in, if that makes sense? These are roles I can do, but they are all definitely a step up.

Looking at where people were before is an excellent suggestion. Thank you.

@Marimaur It’s awful, isn’t it? ☹️

@MabelsApron I have no idea how to work that into conversation, but I’m going to try. As this is getting ridiculous.

@gwenneh Thank you for the great suggestions.

To be fair I don't really see the case for discrimination, because it's not discrimination wanting someone with more experience. Especially at Director level. And in the third sector, which is a challenging sector where a Director may be expected to encounter many hurdles.

You might just have to be a bit more....patient. You've possibly got about 35 years of work ahead of you (don't know how old you are exactly). So why rush?

Maybe be content with a sideways move for now.

I've just accepted a £10k pay cut because I want to move in a slightly different direction. Doesn't bother me.

I don't understand the obsession with always needing to go up, up, up.

That said, I completely understand your frustration at prepping for nine interviews. They are exhausting, make no mistake. So sending solidarity on that front.

Hi OP, I work in the third sector and my first thought was that you're often up against an internal candidate being potentially promoted, and they're bound to be given the role in the end. Could that be it? Very unlucky so many times though!