Page 5 | To think he shouldn’t be charged with murder

CovidCorvid · 2022-01-24T22:34:03+00:00

Story in the news today. A man is stabbing a woman to death in the street, people try and intervene and he’s waving a big knife about. A passing motorist rams him with a car and kills him. The driver has now been charged with murder. I get that people can’t take the law into his own hands but for all he knew it was a mad man/terrorist who might be about to start killing others. Never mind trying to save the life of the poor woman who died. Surely he can argue he didn’t have an intention to kill the man, but was just hoping to stop him. [[https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jan/24/woman-stabbed-man-killed-hit-by-car-maida-vale-west-london]]

ElftonWednesday · 25/01/2022 04:39

It's self defence if you kill someone in defence of someone else's life.

ElftonWednesday · 25/01/2022 04:45

Vigilantes roam around looking for trouble to intervene in, or hunt down alleged perpetrators and harm or kill them. It's discouraged because they often get it wrong and it's not for gangs of random people to mete out their version of "justice".

On the other hand it is self-defence if you happen upon someone being attacked and kill the person attacking them to prevent death or serious harm. There may be more to it in this case, or arresting him may be formality.

anon12345678901 · 25/01/2022 05:01

Well the LFB have said the man was trapped under the car, who was pronounced dead at the scene. One less murderer on the streets, hopefully he did in as much pain as he caused his victim if not more. However since eyewitnesses state he was sitting on her, stabbing her multiple times, I doubt that. If I'm being attacked I'd be happy for someone to use their car, if it gets me too so be it. He wasn't go to let her go until he'd killed her and police weren't there to stop it.
He's not being a vigilante at all. He's a bystander who made a split second decision to try and stop a man murdering a woman. Hearing someone scream in agony and for their life, must do something to you. I don't think everyone would find it as easy not to get involved and wait for police.

anon12345678901 · 25/01/2022 05:01

Meant to add, LFB did not say the woman was trapped, only him.

joannadoe · 25/01/2022 05:01

What if it was you being stabbed multiple times, wouldn't you want the members of the public without putting themselves in danger to help you? The witnesses apparently said they tried to distract the knife man to give the woman a better chance to escape but they couldn't get close enough because he had a massive knife swinging it towards the people who tried to intervene.

The bloke that jumped in the car after attempts to distract the knife man probably thought most likely for a split second "let me jump in the car as he can't stab me through the car and let me try to save this woman" this way he was protecting himself and the victim which unfortunately didn't go down well for the woman in the end. I feel for the family and loved ones of this poor woman and the bloke who tried to help.

lollipoprainbow · 25/01/2022 05:04

I couldn't believe what I read when I saw he was being charged with murder, What for trying to stop someone being stabbed to death? Unbelievable.

Kinneddar · 25/01/2022 05:07

@lollipoprainbow

I couldn't believe what I read when I saw he was being charged with murder, What for trying to stop someone being stabbed to death? Unbelievable.

Hes not been charged, he's been arrested. There's a big difference

BuanoKubiamVej · 25/01/2022 05:23

You may possibly be correct that he shouldn't be convicted of murder, but that's not for the police to decide. So there's nothing wrong with him being arrested on suspicion of murder, which is a very different status.

An inquest will first need to be held to establish the full circumstances of the deaths. If the findings of that inquest are that the cause of the stabber's death was "Justifiable Homicide" then no murder has been committed and there will be no trial. But the police cannot and should not assume that outcome - if the findings of the inquest are that it was murder then there is no doubt who did it, so it is entirely appropriate for the driver to be arrested. He will be considered innocent until proven guilty and i am sure that there will be options to minimise the time in custody but it is quite right and proper for his innocence to be established slowly and carefully with full process of law, not on a snap judgement made on the day of the incident.

Taking a life is very serious. We don't have the death penalty for many reasons, one of which is that even the life of a deranged violent criminal does actually have value. Killing someone guilty removes the opportunity for them to ever repent for a start. Even armed police who kill someone while on duty may be found guilty of murder if it isn't clear that the death was a proportionate meabs if preventing further deaths and that there wasn't the opportunity to achieve a resolution using non-deadly force instead.

ElftonWednesday · 25/01/2022 05:25

I guess they pretty much have to arrest him, given the seriousness of what happened.

Mummyoflittledragon · 25/01/2022 05:28

What an awful situation. I truly hope the man is not charged and that it is found to be lawful killing. He made a split second decision to try to save the woman’s life.

MarieG10 · 25/01/2022 05:31

@BuanoKubiamVej

You may possibly be correct that he shouldn't be convicted of murder, but that's not for the police to decide. So there's nothing wrong with him being arrested on suspicion of murder, which is a very different status.

An inquest will first need to be held to establish the full circumstances of the deaths. If the findings of that inquest are that the cause of the stabber's death was "Justifiable Homicide" then no murder has been committed and there will be no trial. But the police cannot and should not assume that outcome - if the findings of the inquest are that it was murder then there is no doubt who did it, so it is entirely appropriate for the driver to be arrested. He will be considered innocent until proven guilty and i am sure that there will be options to minimise the time in custody but it is quite right and proper for his innocence to be established slowly and carefully with full process of law, not on a snap judgement made on the day of the incident.

Taking a life is very serious. We don't have the death penalty for many reasons, one of which is that even the life of a deranged violent criminal does actually have value. Killing someone guilty removes the opportunity for them to ever repent for a start. Even armed police who kill someone while on duty may be found guilty of murder if it isn't clear that the death was a proportionate meabs if preventing further deaths and that there wasn't the opportunity to achieve a resolution using non-deadly force instead.

He hasn't been charged or convicted. It also isn't down to a coroners court to make a determination until any criminal proceedings are concluded. The incident is being investigated and he has been arrested to facilitate that. He will no likely have a defence under s3 Crimnal Law Act 1977 which states "Section 3 Criminal Law Act 1967 allows such force as is reasonable in the circumstances to prevent crime or in the effecting or assisting in the lawful arrest of offenders or suspected offenders. ". This is applicable to members of the public

Unless the reporting is utter rubbish (which it may be), he is highly unlikely to be charged, let alone convicted

JugglingJanuary · 25/01/2022 05:52

@CovidCorvid

Personally I think he should be given a medal. Trying to save someone’s life, had a split second to make a decision. 🤷‍♀️

That's what I thought too.

RantyAunty · 25/01/2022 06:05

I hope it is determined to be a lawful killing and he'll be release. He'll likely be traumatised by it.

That poor woman. It was very likely her partner that stabbed and murdered her. It said her coat was caught under the wheel so it doesn't look like she was run over, just the pos who was stabbing her.

Karma acted swiftly when that pos was under the car yelling for someone to help him.

chaosrabbitland · 25/01/2022 06:15

@sadpapercourtesan

If you deliberately hit somebody with your car, you must know there's a good chance you're going to cause their death

Members of the public aren't empowered to go around smiting evil-doers to death. The law has to be fair and applicable to everyone.

well i dunno , the bloke he ran over was trying to stab somebody to death , it was extenuating circumstances id say ,

autienotnaughty · 25/01/2022 06:33

Awful that this person could go to prison for trying to save another person's life. Should he have watched like everyone else? And why did it take so long for police to arrive.?

Alexandra2001 · 25/01/2022 06:37

Another woman murdered in broad day light and the 'met police arrest the man who tried to stop the attack.... what is it with the 'Met ?

I don't believe they arrested the officers who murdered (thats what it was) an innocent electrician on the tube a few years ago.

What a message to send anyone who might want to intervene in future?

They did not have to arrest him on suspicion of murder.

ViceLikeBlip · 25/01/2022 06:47

If you kill someone, the police have to arrest you while they try and figure out wtf has gone on. It could be that the knife man and the driver were already known to each other, and there was actually motive for murder there and this was just a good opportunity (I see this is not likely! But it has to be considered).

Darbs76 · 25/01/2022 06:50

I doubt he will be tried for this. The police have to arrest him to establish the facts. He was trying his best to get the knifeman off the girl. No he probably shouldn’t have done what he did, and sorry for the family of the knife man but he put himself in a position of danger and had no regard for anyone else’s life. I think there will be uproar if he’s charged with murder.

FlamingRoses · 25/01/2022 06:51

I’m sure the case will be dropped down the line as ‘not in the public interest to pursue’. The police are doing the right thing though.

WendyTreetops · 25/01/2022 06:52

@Alexandra2001

Another woman murdered in broad day light and the 'met police arrest the man who tried to stop the attack.... what is it with the 'Met ?

I don't believe they arrested the officers who murdered (thats what it was) an innocent electrician on the tube a few years ago.

What a message to send anyone who might want to intervene in future?

They did not have to arrest him on suspicion of murder.

You mean the de Menezes case back in 2005? That was a man not a woman who was tragically killed. The CPS did not bring forward a prosecution of any individuals involved in the shooting due to insufficient evidence. The Met Commissioner (in his official capacity) was prosecuted and found guilty of a breach of the Health and Safety Act.

fabulouslyglamorousferret · 25/01/2022 06:55

@GloriaSicTransitMundi

Please note the driver ran over the woman being stabbed as well as the person doing the stabbing - it's not yet known if she died of the stab wounds or from being run over. Yes definitely he should have been arrested while the police gather information and assess the situation.

It said her coat was caught under the car, that doesn't sound like she was run over

Foreverlexicon · 25/01/2022 06:56

If it happened as the article said it happened, I highly doubt he would be charged.

You can use force, even lethal force to protect yourself or others if it is proportionate and necessary. But police need to establish that it happened as that article reads. He killed someone, perhaps justifiably. That needs to be investigated.

Some people on MN just want to bash the police anyway they can.

vickyc90 · 25/01/2022 06:57

He shouldn't be in custody period, even if you sent him home with a police officer he a bloody hero for even trying to disarm a knifeman.

Alexandra2001 · 25/01/2022 07:00

You mean the de Menezes case back in 2005? That was a man not a woman who was tragically killed. The CPS did not bring forward a prosecution of any individuals involved in the shooting due to insufficient evidence. The Met Commissioner (in his official capacity) was prosecuted and found guilty of a breach of the Health and Safety Act

Well aware he was a man, is that relevant?

But as i said, no one arrested on suspicion of murder, despite it being clearly such.
Gunning anyone down who is just going to work is murder.

Alexandra2001 · 25/01/2022 07:02

@Foreverlexicon You can investigate the facts without arresting on suspicion of murder.

Given recent events at the 'Met, its hardly surprising people have no faith in the Police.