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Original poster

To think he shouldn’t be charged with murder

202 replies

CovidCorvid · 24/01/2022 22:34

Story in the news today. A man is stabbing a woman to death in the street, people try and intervene and he’s waving a big knife about. A passing motorist rams him with a car and kills him. The driver has now been charged with murder. I get that people can’t take the law into his own hands but for all he knew it was a mad man/terrorist who might be about to start killing others. Never mind trying to save the life of the poor woman who died. Surely he can argue he didn’t have an intention to kill the man, but was just hoping to stop him.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jan/24/woman-stabbed-man-killed-hit-by-car-maida-vale-west-london

OP posts:
VanGoghsDog · 24/01/2022 23:22

[quote CovidCorvid]Story in the news today. A man is stabbing a woman to death in the street, people try and intervene and he’s waving a big knife about. A passing motorist rams him with a car and kills him. The driver has now been charged with murder. I get that people can’t take the law into his own hands but for all he knew it was a mad man/terrorist who might be about to start killing others. Never mind trying to save the life of the poor woman who died. Surely he can argue he didn’t have an intention to kill the man, but was just hoping to stop him.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jan/24/woman-stabbed-man-killed-hit-by-car-maida-vale-west-london[/quote]
He can argue that, of course, but he has to be charged and if the police and CPS decide there's enough evidence it will go to court and a jury will get to decide what his intention was. That's how it works.

GloriaSicTransitMundi · 24/01/2022 23:23

Please note the driver ran over the woman being stabbed as well as the person doing the stabbing - it's not yet known if she died of the stab wounds or from being run over. Yes definitely he should have been arrested while the police gather information and assess the situation.

steppemum · 24/01/2022 23:25

@MaxNormal

OP I agree with you. This isn't vigilantism, it's a split second decision of stopping a very dangerous active situation by the only means you have.
yes I agree.

if it is as it seems.
Obviously there may be more to it than that.

bonfireheart · 24/01/2022 23:31

Woaaaaaaaaah is all I can say at some of these posters! Thanks to the officers talking sense on here.

LuluBlakey1 · 24/01/2022 23:32

He should be given a medal.

DdraigGoch · 24/01/2022 23:34

The police aren't there to decide who deserves punishment, that's the court's job. So yes, the police should charge and let the court decide.

WorstXmasEver · 24/01/2022 23:39

You can't just run people over because you think they're comitting a serious crime. I can't help feeling the driver has been really dumb.

Abigail12345654321 · 24/01/2022 23:40

@GloriaSicTransitMundi

Please note the driver ran over the woman being stabbed as well as the person doing the stabbing - it's not yet known if she died of the stab wounds or from being run over. Yes definitely he should have been arrested while the police gather information and assess the situation.
It was reported only that a bit of her coat was caught under his wheel, so they couldn’t easily move her. Not that he hit her with the car.

Frankly it sounds like a proportionate response by the driver to attempt to save her life, given attempts to make him stop had failed and he was continuing to stab her.

Terribly sad she didn’t survive but it sounds like he was both quick thinking in using his car as a weapon to disarm the attacker and in managing to hit the attacker rather than the victim. Given the speed it must all have been happening that is admirable for a youngster. Well done that man. I hope his family are very proud of him. No doubt he will be in shock and have nightmares about what he witnessed - but well done him for acting and not just freezing, as most people would have done.

I hope she lived long enough to know someone had stopped the attack.

TatianaBis · 24/01/2022 23:41

@GloriaSicTransitMundi

Please note the driver ran over the woman being stabbed as well as the person doing the stabbing - it's not yet known if she died of the stab wounds or from being run over. Yes definitely he should have been arrested while the police gather information and assess the situation.
The report I read it was just her coat trapped under the wheel. She died of stab wounds.

But yes of course the police have to arrest him.

Blossom64265 · 24/01/2022 23:41

I’ve always imagined that in a situation like this, the officers who have to process the potential hero, would do it with as much respect and comfort as possible. It’s important that proper evidence be collected and that procedures be followed, especially since that can matter for the prosecution of the actual assailant, but that wouldn’t stop someone from being given a comfortable chair or a decent cup of coffee.

Abigail12345654321 · 24/01/2022 23:41

@WorstXmasEver

You can't just run people over because you think they're comitting a serious crime. I can't help feeling the driver has been really dumb.
Yes you can. If it’s a proportionate response, you absolutely can. Most people just don’t have the wherewithal to actually manage it.
TatianaBis · 24/01/2022 23:42

@WorstXmasEver

You can't just run people over because you think they're comitting a serious crime. I can't help feeling the driver has been really dumb.
I don’t think it’s that clear cut.

If she had survived he’d have saved her life.

Strictlyfanoftenyears · 24/01/2022 23:46

@WorstXmasEver

You can't just run people over because you think they're comitting a serious crime. I can't help feeling the driver has been really dumb.
Hell, I hope someone would drive into anybody if they were stabbing someone......................
TatianaBis · 24/01/2022 23:48

I hope someone drives over someone stabbing me that’s for sure.

Abigail12345654321 · 24/01/2022 23:50

@Strictlyfanoftenyears

I agree!

Most people wouldn’t risk their pcp car getting damaged……am in awe of the young man involved…..sounds like he tried other options and used the car only when it was apparent that wouldn’t work. Very, very impressive of him.

Luredbyapomegranate · 24/01/2022 23:51

Well I’d imagine he has to be initially, as it’s a deliberate killing, but if it is as it appears, and he was trying to save the woman, then that’ll be established

Luredbyapomegranate · 24/01/2022 23:53

@WorstXmasEver

You can't just run people over because you think they're comitting a serious crime. I can't help feeling the driver has been really dumb.
I don’t think it’s the driver that’s dumb @WorstXmasEver if it is as it appears to be, it’s a proportionate response.
Blossomtoes · 24/01/2022 23:58

Committing a crime for a "good" reason doesn't negate that a crime was committed

It worked for the Coulston Four.

SheldonesqueTheBstard · 25/01/2022 00:03

Poor woman.

My sympathy lies with her family and the man who tried to stop it.

Not the man who died.

Abigail12345654321 · 25/01/2022 00:05

@Luredbyapomegranate

Well I’d imagine he has to be initially, as it’s a deliberate killing, but if it is as it appears, and he was trying to save the woman, then that’ll be established
He never meant to kill. He only meant to maim, or seriously injure.

Like Dobby.

And in the circumstances, lethal force seems both reasonable and lawful.

Chloemol · 25/01/2022 00:15

[quote CovidCorvid]Story in the news today. A man is stabbing a woman to death in the street, people try and intervene and he’s waving a big knife about. A passing motorist rams him with a car and kills him. The driver has now been charged with murder. I get that people can’t take the law into his own hands but for all he knew it was a mad man/terrorist who might be about to start killing others. Never mind trying to save the life of the poor woman who died. Surely he can argue he didn’t have an intention to kill the man, but was just hoping to stop him.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jan/24/woman-stabbed-man-killed-hit-by-car-maida-vale-west-london[/quote]
They have arrested him, they have not charged him with anything yet

Flowers500 · 25/01/2022 00:22

The level of legal understanding from some of the comments on here...

Firstly he has been arrested NOT charged. This is so that they can get him to the station and have the full time to do interviews, hold him etc. It does not mean or even IMPLY that he will be charged with murder.

Secondly: on the facts as we know them, if someone is mid murder and a passerby attempts to stop them, resulting in the murder's death, they have not committed a crimeit is a full and complete common law defence of self defence (defence of another). People on here saying 'well he died, of course he's going to get some punishment!' know jack shit. That's NOT the law. Self defence is a COMPLETE defence-means the entire case fails if it is successfully shown. The force will need to be reasonable, bearing in mind all circumstances and the fact he is acting in the heat of the moment. He didn't run over him multiple times (as far as we know) it seems an act of desperation to stop the stabbing which would be reasonable at the time. Fun fact (doesn't apply here): in householder cases it doesn't even need to be reasonable force, it just need to NOT be grossly unreasonable. So yes people do get killed lawfully under self defence.

The police will have no interest in prosecuting and the CPS will say (if these facts reported are shown to be correct) that he has used reasonable force in the heat of the moment, he would have a full defence to murder and therefore there would be no hope of a prosecution, so he will not be charged.

The whole point of the arrest at this stage is to ensure that the facts are established correctly, if they are as reported he has not committed murder, manslaughter or any other crime here.

Flowers500 · 25/01/2022 00:24

@WorstXmasEver

You can't just run people over because you think they're comitting a serious crime. I can't help feeling the driver has been really dumb.
Head in hands--this is NOT how the law works!!! Defending yourself or someone else using reasonable force is NOT A CRIME. The driver has not committed a crime, he will not be charged with a crime.
TonyThreePies · 25/01/2022 00:29

It's a nightmare scenario. The poor guy, he was probably just on his way to work or something. He got out of his car and tried to stop this poor woman being murdered, got threatened by the murderer and instead of driving off he did something decisive to try and stop him. And now he's been arrested and charged with murder. I feel so so sorry for the hell he is living in now for a split second decision. Whatever the outcome of the charge, this will stay with him forever. For trying to stop a stranger from being murdered.

Flowers500 · 25/01/2022 00:29

@UserBot999

I agree, that should be manslaughter
To explain why this is not the case:

Voluntary manslaughter would be due to diminished responsibility (ie a mental health issue less than insanity) or loss of control. These are essentially that the defendant has proved a 'partial defence' to murder--not a full defence. The law recognises that there are some circumstances where murder is less morally blameworthy.

This would not be a case of murder, and not of manslaughter either. That's because self defence (defence of another) is a FULL defence to murder. This means that it blows up the entire charge--there is no murder, no manslaughter, nothing.