Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to find it a bit annoying my mil gave dds golliwogs for christmas?

184 replies

mrsshackleton · 28/12/2007 15:30

Mil is very right wing and hates all political correctness so among other things has presented my two dds with two gollys.She says they're not golliwogs they're jolly gollys and every child loves them, which of course the dds do. We're staying with her in the country now and I am saying to dh there is no way we can take them back to London as we will offend our friends having them lying round the house. He says if we don't take them, mil will be upset (she will). What do other mnetters think? I can see that a black doll on its own isn't intrinsically offensive but I also think it has connotations that could upset people and I know my mil has given them to be deliberately provocative. Ah, merry christmas every one!

OP posts:
VictorianSqualor · 01/01/2008 22:14

Maybe everyone who is thinking a golly was originally a racial slur shoudl research it.
Try starting here.
Itwasn't meant to depict minstrels, it was just a character in a book, later on other people added racist connotations to it, and as it hadn't been patented by the creator they were unfortunately able to do so.
I'd like to think if my children ever want a golly (they've never seen one so ahve never asked) that I could use it as a good example of how ignorant misinformed idiots (I mean the racists here btw!!)turned a once innocent toy into a figure of racism.

EzrasMummy · 01/01/2008 22:18

Well I find it offensive and i know a whole lot of people that would feel the same way. I dont know where the word came from but im not talking about that. Those dolls depict the minstrels and we all know what they were for. But ultimately, as we all know, its up to you.

geekymummy · 01/01/2008 22:24

Well Phatmouse, here I am, a black woman who asserts that gollywogs are stereotypical for the reasons I and others have outlined previously in the thread.

Racism goes beyond the the overt, "don't want to live near 'em", BNP/KKK mentality. There's the whole issue of black people internalising racist beauty ideals and other dogma as well, but that's another thread.

What do you think of the points that have been made earlier about how black people have been caricatured and the thought process behind it that it was ok to do so?

Gollywogs are more than "just a toy". There wouldn't be a problem if they were simply black dolls like this for example.

geekymummy · 01/01/2008 22:31

The Gollywog Caricature

Cashncarry · 01/01/2008 22:38

VS - the site you've referenced actually advertises those dollies for sale so therefore I presume they have some sort of vested interested in promoting them even if it's just a referral fee from ebay - hardly an objective source of information I think.

Anyway, I don't think the point is to argue the toss about the intentions of people from two centuries ago, fifty years ago or even the previous generation. The point is that I personally am offended by them because I was called a "golliwog" on a daily basis between the ages 11 and 17. Seeing them leaves a nasty taste in mouth frankly.

From the other posts on this thread, it seems I'm not alone. If it doesn't bother you, your call. But if the situation were reversed, I'd like to think I was a big enough person to put someone's feelings over an inanimate object.

Phatmouse · 01/01/2008 22:47

There you go then its official i'm a racist.

geekymummy · 01/01/2008 22:58

I wasn't suggesting that, Phatmouse. I just wanted you to ponder on what I posted.

Can you appreciate at least how and why gollies are seen as offensive?

Yeyeayo · 01/01/2008 23:35

Phatmouse, why are you being so sensitive?? No one here called you a racist. It's a fact that, as geekymummy said, that she, I, and other black women on this thread have said that WE find the toy offensive. I don't recall anyone here saying that people that had them were automatically racist - simply that they should consider the history of the dolls and the fact that they are offensive to many black people.

ScottishMummy · 01/01/2008 23:49

joining this thead late.my VGood friend was tormented for years at school called gollywog monkey as insults. still cringe at recollection and the pain it caused
so whilst i recognize it is inanimate object and not in itself derogatory, however its associations and connotations for many people are painful and derogatory

Mommalove · 01/01/2008 23:49

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

MarsyChristmas · 02/01/2008 01:39

Phatmouse no one (as far as I can see) has called you a racist nor would they presume to do so (unless you gave them actual reason to). I do hope that you see what it is that we are trying to articulate. If you wish to keep/have golliwogs, then it is up to you, after all it is I (and others) who are offended and it is up to you whether or not that matters.

seeker · 02/01/2008 04:52

I really don't get this.

There are about 350000 different sorts of toy in the world. Why choose to give children the one that may cause offence to a particular group of people?

It's not big deal. People of colour are or may be offended by gollies. So give your children a toy chosen from the 3500049 other types available. Why deliberately do something that might be offensive?

I wish there was an "I am extremely baffled" emoticon!

tigermoth · 02/01/2008 07:56

Just out of curiosity, do you think your MIL will make a big point of asking about the gollys when you next see her? Will your dds be upset if you 'lose' them?

I agree that your best bet is to take them back to London, then dispose of them. If you want to do this in such a way as to cause minimum friction with your MIL, could you take them out to a park with your dds, then stash them out of site, telling your dd's they must have been 'stolen'. Stolen implies you had less to do with their disappearance than simply losing them.

MadamePlatypus · 02/01/2008 08:35

Gollywogs stem from a time when it was taught that black people were savages who would benefit from being tamed by civilised nations. Their design emphasises how 'funny' black people look with their big lips and different hair. Anybody who thinks that a Gollywog was the Victorian equivalent of a Sasha doll is conveniently ignoring the culture in which they evolved. It could be argued that when they were originally made people didn't know any better and therefore they didn't have any malicious intention. We no longer have that excuse.

seeker · 02/01/2008 08:44

Actually, the more I think about this, the more I think that if I was the OP, I would say to the MIL (not in the children's hearing) that I thought they were completely inappropriate and I wasn't prepared to let my dc have them. Particularly if she was being deliberately provocative. Then if the children were over 5, I wouldn't just "lose" the dolls, I would tell them that Grandma made a mistake in giving them, and that if they played with the gollies at home, [insert name of black schoolmate] might be upset and think that the junior shakletons were laughing at them or teasing them and we don't want that do we? So Grandma's going to take them back to the shop and buy something else. Isn't that kind of Grandma?

CharlieAndLolasMummy · 02/01/2008 09:31

Yes, I also just don't get this

A lot of this "pc stuff gone mad" comes down to manners. To saying that, actually, the opinions and feelings of this or that group ARE important.

Clearly golliwogs cause offence to at least some people. I have to say, I am white and I find them bloody offensive, knowing the history. Excellent reasons for this have been given ad nauseum on this thread.

No, just because you played with golliwogs as a kid, you are not a racist. I did, at my grandma's house, and while I am sure I do have prejudices that I haven't noticed, I do my best to educate myself out of them. BUT if you think its ok to perpatrate an offensive steroptype simply because you have warm and fuzzy memories of it-if you think that the opinions of people who ARE offended by it, for excellent reasons, are less important than your right to re-enact your childhood...well

So what is the issue? Get rid of it. I wouldn't lose it, actually, I'd give it back. Personally I'd have a talk with MIL too. She has also been pretty rude to you in giving your kids toys which, if I've read the OP correctly, you were likely to object to.

MadamePlatypus · 02/01/2008 09:49

Whats so great about gollywogs anyway? As far as I can see , their bodies are stiff and they are stuck with one set of clothes. Beyond nostalgia, even if I they weren't racist, I can't understand what they have going for them as a toy.

foxcubinapeartree · 02/01/2008 10:01

Crikey - where does one buy gollies from nowadays?

The term "Golly-wog" is pretty offensive, but I have to admit I still have my gollydolly from when I was a child and its on the shelf in the DCs' room. My husband is black and our children are mixed race (I'm Irish so my family have our own experience of racism), but we don't find the golly offensive - partly just because it was owned by an innocent child in an era where people really didn't "get it" about diversity issues.

I do agree that it is a very odd present for someone to buy nowadays though.

The golly has been well and truly discredited, so presumably your MIL is trying to make a "I am non PC and proud of it" statement, which is pretty irritating in itself - specially as it is deflected onto your DCs and puts you in a dilemna as to what to do with the unweanted present.

What do you think you will do?

foxcubinapeartree · 02/01/2008 10:23

Sorry, just re-read my my post, and realised iy looks as though I am saying gollys are not offensive. Of course they are, with all their connotations. Its just that I love my knitted golly and remember cuddling it as a child and can't bring myself to part with it. Its not something I would choose to buy now and I'm surprised they are still on sale to be frank.

Original poster
mrsshackleton · 02/01/2008 10:33

My dds are very young, nearly three and seven months and all this is way, way above their heads
So there's no point making a big deal about this in front of them, they wouldn't get it at all. If they were older I would say explain why the gollies weren't acceptable but hopefully this won't happen again. If I simply lose the gollies they will never remember them, they had so many christmas toys including of plenty of others from MIL and luckily dd1 is much more attached to a new winnie the poo she got than the gollies anyway. Good suggestion to say the were "stolen" but don't think dh (who is very supportive of his dm who is having a crap time right now with her mother dying a nasty death of cancer) would believe me, while it's perfectly plausible they could just "disappear" as our house is very big and full of discarded toys. Next time Mil visits I'll just look vague if she asks and say I'm sure they're around somewhere. As I said earlier there is no point confronting her and having a huge row about this, it would change nothing and we have enough family problems at the moment without creating a new one. I'm not happy having them in my house, so they shan't stay in my house (now are hidden in a drawer in my bedroom where they won't be found)

OP posts:
margoandjerry · 02/01/2008 15:44

So I think there's a consensus that the gollies have to go, and I agree.

But can someone explain this to me. Setting aside the B&W Minstrels which was a horrible 70s programme - horrible because it had white people blacked up as black people as if that was in itself hilarious - why is it bad that gollies represent minstrels per se? Gollies predate the show so it can't be that connection. Why is it bad to represent travelling singers which is what I thought minstrels were. Is there something more to it than that?

I totally get that there is a generally negative stereotyping going on with gollies but isn't the fact that they are dressed as minstrels just incidental? Am only interested in an explanation of why the minstrel bit is bad, not in reopening the question.

MadamePlatypus · 02/01/2008 19:48

There is alot of info about the history of minstrel shows here. They pre-date the 70's programme by almost 200 years.

margoandjerry · 02/01/2008 19:55

Thank you MP. That was very interesting. I did not know any of that and also did not know the word minstrelsy...

There were some shockers in there

Clarinet60 · 03/01/2008 16:31

It might not be too nice to have 'Rag-doll' hurled at you constantly as a term of abuse, but whenever I see a gollywog, all I can remember is being called one at school constantly, and being left in no doubt that it was a lower form of human, closer to an animal, and that as a black person, so was I.

If I had a gollywog spray-painted on the side of my car it would mean something quite different to a rag-doll spray-painted on the side of a white person's car.

Clarinet60 · 03/01/2008 16:47

While we're on the subject, I was brought up by my white grandparents in a mostly white area. Imagine my grandad's face when I took my mum's ancient Enid Blyton book to him at the age of 9 and asked him why the 'natives' from 'Africa' (where I knew my dad was from) had been drawn as these hideous half-animal creatures? Did I identify with them? You bet. Did he realise that's what I was doing? Oh yes. Picture that kind, loving face for a moment and weep.