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Original poster

to find it a bit annoying my mil gave dds golliwogs for christmas?

184 replies

mrsshackleton · 28/12/2007 15:30

Mil is very right wing and hates all political correctness so among other things has presented my two dds with two gollys.She says they're not golliwogs they're jolly gollys and every child loves them, which of course the dds do. We're staying with her in the country now and I am saying to dh there is no way we can take them back to London as we will offend our friends having them lying round the house. He says if we don't take them, mil will be upset (she will). What do other mnetters think? I can see that a black doll on its own isn't intrinsically offensive but I also think it has connotations that could upset people and I know my mil has given them to be deliberately provocative. Ah, merry christmas every one!

OP posts:
Elasticwoman · 30/12/2007 21:00

Yes margo - Little Babaji sounds much better. Can you tell me which continent he is supposed to be living in?

geekymummy · 30/12/2007 21:01

May I interject - I wouldn't call opposition to racism, racial stereotypes or sensitivity to racial issues political correctness - just plain common sense and polite!

Elasticwoman - gollys are NOT simply a black doll. They are stereotypical! It's great to have dolls of different backgrounds but check the history of "golliwogs" and you'll see why it's a sore point, to say the least.

geekymummy · 30/12/2007 21:05

Honestly, I'm wondering if the term "PC" is one that many people use to roll their eyes and label people as easily offended...

margoandjerry · 30/12/2007 21:07

There's a bit about it in the new version. It says that the original was "clearly supposed to be set in India" because it mentions ghee apparently. I just remember it talking about butter but perhaps that was an anglicised version. Helen Bannerman, who wrote it, lived in India for 30 years. But you are right - the illustrations don't really look like an Indian child.

Anyway, the new version is completely Indian and rather lovely. New illustrator to go with the new branding.

I'm so glad I found it because I really loved that book. Odd that we had it because my mother was a social worker who went out of her way in the late 60s to find us a black doll to play with so we didn't get too eurocentric .

Yeyeayo · 30/12/2007 21:08

I'm sorry, but as a black woman, I find golliwogs highly offensive. This is because I was taught their origin as a youngster - and knowing this - I also find it simplistic for people to say that the doll is harmless just because they didn't know what those origins were before now. People who think this - imo - can't be very well informed - black, white or whatever. And you need to become so - ignorance is no excuse. In addition, now you do know what those origins are - I can see no valid reason for you to continue to think they are 'harmless'.

madamez · 30/12/2007 21:17

Just out of curiousity, if there were such a thing (indeed, is there???) as a 'golly' doll with big eyes, big smile, the frock-coat-stryped-trousers costume, but which had an orange, blue, green or purple face, would people find that offensive or inadvisable?

WinkyWinkola · 30/12/2007 22:01

Well, no it wouldn't be offensive because it wouldn't be a 'comic' representation of any race on the planet.

Blu · 30/12/2007 22:08

Geeky - well said on your comments on 'pc'.

Elizabetth · 30/12/2007 22:15

I agree Yeyeayo, most people these days are fully aware of how offensive and racist golliwogs are (it's why they are hardly ever given to children) so to say they are harmless is probably insensitive at best and racist at worst.

It's not possible to take away their racist history, they were toys used by white people to demean black people. I'd say you should take them back to London MrsShackleton then dump them straight in a London bin. You don't even need to tell anybody what you are doing - she's obviously trying to start a fight.

southeastastra · 30/12/2007 22:20

only read op

my auntie had a black china doll in the 50s, she didn't see it as demeaning, she loved that doll.

they seriously weren't brough out originally as anything other than a toy a plaything of someone that looked different.

my mum told me that all the kids used to follow the one black man up the road.

it a timepiece from a certain age, it shouldn't be made into something it's not.

Blu · 30/12/2007 22:21

And the very fact that your MIL knows she is being deliberately provocotive, and knows (because of her re-assigning them as 'jolly gollies') that they are offensive, makes me think that you wouldn't want your children playing with them!

Bloody woman!

Blu · 30/12/2007 22:23

SEA - a black china doll? Why would that be offensive?
DS has a black baby born - she's not offensive, either.

Elizabetth · 30/12/2007 22:28

Souteastastra the 1950s were the time when landlords had signs in their windows saying "No Blacks, No Irish, No Dogs". It's a bit much to get nostalgic about that kind of racism.

southeastastra · 30/12/2007 22:30

yes so it's a perfect way to teach children about the past, isn't it

Cashncarry · 30/12/2007 22:31

I'm having a little wry LOL at this thread and the posters who are up in arms against the "PC Brigade" - it can't be that difficult to understand why people would actually found it offensive, particularly if you've actually been called that in the past, can it?

GogoTheSmall · 30/12/2007 22:34

Well said Yeyeayo - most people know that the history of the golliwog is based on hatred and ridicule of black people. You can't separate that from the symbol of the golliwog and to think that you can is just ignorant.

southeastastra · 30/12/2007 22:36

no the golly and even heaven forbid, the black and white minster show weren't based on hatred at all.

lisalisa · 30/12/2007 22:40

Message withdrawn

kindersurprise · 30/12/2007 22:41

I have enjoyed this thread, as it has opened my eyes to the real reason why gollys are considered offensive.

I admit to thinking it is a bit PC gone mad until I read more about the background.

When you read that, and read there are posters on MN of mixed race who find gollys offensive then it really is a no-brainer.

Assuming that it is not just a few MNetters, and that there are many other people who are likely to be upset to see a child playing with a golly, I do not see why anyone would want their child to have one.

Yeyeayo · 30/12/2007 22:41

I'm assuming your comment is tongue in cheek Southeastastra

Blu · 30/12/2007 22:43

Lisa - your posting (or at least typing) style has changed - are you enjoying the seasonal spirit?

I am unable to think rationally when called a 'brigade' of any kind - god knows what i'd be like if called any name derived from the aforesaid toys!

Elizabetth · 30/12/2007 22:44

"no the golly and even heaven forbid, the black and white minster show weren't based on hatred at all."

Of course they were, they were based on the idea that black people were lesser creatures and could be mocked and caricatured by whites.

Children who play with these sort of toys grow up with unconscious racism which manifests itself in ways like ignoring black people's complaints about golliwogs or minstrel shows, instead thinking that their own or their children's enjoyment of them is more important than any black person's pain or hurt.

Elizabetth · 30/12/2007 22:45

Oops is southeastastra teasing? The thing is there are people who believe stuff like that.

Cashncarry · 30/12/2007 22:45

I know MN gets a lot of flack for being PC but threads like this make me think thank f*k for people with an ounce of common sense who actually acknowledge that there is racism out there rather than assuming that only BNP supporters would encourage a child to spout racist crap.

Racism is RIFE people - wake up

Yeyeayo · 30/12/2007 22:46

'Children who play with these sort of toys grow up with unconscious racism which manifests itself in ways like ignoring black people's complaints about golliwogs or minstrel shows, instead thinking that their own or their children's enjoyment of them is more important than any black person's pain or hurt. '
Brilliantly put, Elizabetth