to find it a bit annoying my mil gave dds golliwogs for christmas?

[mrsshackleton]

Mil is very right wing and hates all political correctness so among other things has presented my two dds with two gollys.She says they're not golliwogs they're jolly gollys and every child loves them, which of course the dds do. We're staying with her in the country now and I am saying to dh there is no way we can take them back to London as we will offend our friends having them lying round the house. He says if we don't take them, mil will be upset (she will). What do other mnetters think? I can see that a black doll on its own isn't intrinsically offensive but I also think it has connotations that could upset people and I know my mil has given them to be deliberately provocative. Ah, merry christmas every one!

they really weren't seen like that at the time.

my mum and dad didn't see a black person at all in 40s london, a doll was just an innocent introduction to another race, why it's seen as racists i find hard to understand. though it's easy to look back and find a racist element to it with hindsight.

"they really weren't seen like that at the time."

They were if you were black and living in a segregated society.

Funny you know - I just showed this thread to Dh (chinese) who said that if someone bought DS's chinese dolls with little chinese hats and farming outfits (stereotype) he wouldn't want DS's to have them - mainley as they do not represent the diverse culture in China and as we aren't there for DS's to experience the culture he would prefer for them not to have these stereotyped images.

I am glad we had the discussion as I had no idea that images like that would cause him concern.

Message withdrawn

yes maybe revgreen, but they made a dolly, isn't that the best way for children to integrate

Does that mean that you think the black people who find golliwogs offensive are being overly sensitive?
The very history of the things make them completely undesirable.
Additionally, racism is not all conscious name-calling. Its long history and background have made it insidious. And I consider golliwogs to be a part of that. Some very ugly ideas and philosophies can be conveyed and propagated in seemingly innocent ways and forms.

Southeastastra
To use racial stereotypes to teach children about other races is not going to help though, is it?

To show a "black" person as having a black face, white eyes, big red lips and lots of black hair, while wearing servant clothes will not teach the diversity of the human race.

There are loads of racist connotations that children won't imediatley pick up on, but that doesn't mean that they aren't there. My dcs wouldn't understand that it was offensive for someone to say 'wash my pants' to them because not all chinese people work in laundrys now (we all work in take aways ) but it still is offensive, its just more subtle than 'feck off back to your own country'.

yes but i'm saying that's how my parents born in 1930 thought of the toys not parents now.

that's why the toys were made in the first place.

I think some of these toys and stories are actually used to indoctrinate white children into racism even if its done unconsciously. I feel a bit sick about some of the books and stories I was given when I was a kid, I wish I'd never been exposed to them.

Supposedly its adults who are trying to push the resurgence of golliwogs. I bet there weren't any children asking for them for christmas this year but it may not have stopped a few being given as presents.

surely the point isn't about how YOUR parents saw things rather the black people in the country who were being caricatured (SP?)

Yes. I am putting no blame on my parents's generation as we have become more racially sensitive in the past 30 years. My mother is definately not racist, but she bought me a golly when I was a child.

Now, however, we do know the conotations and we should recognise that gollys are not suitable as children's playthings.

it's great to judge and look back in hindsight but you're looking at a post war britain where things were very grim.

Nobody's "judging" the 30s and 40s though. What we're saying is that in 2007/8, people should know better. The world's a smaller place now and far more integrated so there's no excuse for perpetuating racial stereotypes, toys or not, IMO.

yes gollys shouldn't be given nowadays

I'm of the view that whatever the era, being racist (and other horrors) is inexcusable.

To say it was of the time is akin to saying, "All my friends were doing it, so I did it too." Never good enough an excuse. That's like saying it's ok not to think beyond the crowd.

yes but that's easy to say in 2007, not so easy in 1946.

YABU
Gollies are fine

Care to elaborate darlink??

I do believe attitudes are changing for the better. It's so trite to say that no offence is meant. We must be proacative in developing our understanding of different cultures.

I was brought up in a household where my dad would tease us by saying such things as 'Last one upstairs is a nig nog!' which he later assured me was referring to black people in an 'affectionate' way

I truly do not think that my mother, back in the 60s/70s realised that gollys were racist.

There were periods in history, whether we like it or not, that racism, homophobia, anti-semitism etc were part of every day life and rarely critisised. I am of course not saying that this is a good thing.

Sometimes, when reading a book I am reminded of this. I was reading a Georgette Heyer book recently and was quite shocked at the portrayal of the Jewish moneylender. This is a book first published in 1950.

It was not until later that things changed. I can still remember my grandad talking about the "darkies" and telling him that he should not call them that. I think I was about 14 or 15 at the time, so around 20 years ago people still using language that nowadays would not be tolerated.

I think I agree with Elizabetth on this one, I'd feel really uncomfortable having a golly in my house - the racial stereotyping is just toe-curlingly horrible.

When mine were tiny I had to give my dad a stern lecture about 'Eeny, meeny, miny, mo...'

hang on, there have been a good few black people on here saying 'yes, i find gollies offensive' and yet still it's the work of the 'pc brigade'? isn't it just manners at the end of the day?