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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

What can realistically be done with violent kids in classroom?

403 replies

EdithRea · 21/01/2022 17:06

Since Reception one boy has been a problem in the classroom. Aggressive, swearing, tears down the displays, rips up children's work, throws chairs, uses the f and c word at the teacher and screams throughout class.

Instead of regaling me with nice tales of crayoning or writing, my youngest instead reported that various male teachers from around the school frequently have to be called to the classroom to restrain this child. Hearing a 4 year old talk about such things was a shock, but it became our day to day reality. The boy is violent to classmates and I told her to keep as far away as she could, to stay with a teacher if necessary, as he 'looks up girls skirts' and tears out their hair.

He has been known to gleefully kill insects in front of the other children, which left my child utterly distraught at the time. One was a butterfly.

A few years pass. The kid remains problematic and class projects and plans are cancelled due to him. The entire playground needs to be split up especially to 'keep him away' from starting fights with other boys.

Pandemic hits, homeworking, I slowly forget The Kid. She goes back, and I am reminded of The Kid. The displays are torn down again. More chairs thrown. I see the child arriving at school. He's obviously much larger. Male teachers are still brought in to control him. He is often removed from the room and taught elsewhere, meaning no teaching assistant cover for the class.

Today a science fair type treat for the children was ruined because instead of building their experiments and displaying their models, the boy went around the room and tore everyone's work to shreds, and again had to be restrained and removed by male teachers. I reiterate that only because it must be his size, or an indicator as to the level of his aggression, that they call the blokes in.

Back in the days that school trips existed, her class never went. They were supposed to get 'a treat' last year which got cancelled after The Kid smashed a newly refurbished bathroom up, tearing up tiles and plaster.

What can realistically be done? There's been years of this now, and my child sounds so bloody upset and defeated. School is miserable. Class is just a battle between keeping the kids safe from this boy. They're watching adults struggling with a raging boy instead of learning. She's worn down by the most shocking, vile language. She's afraid of the chair-throwing and table upending. And when he's 11 it's going to be a lot worse.

I don't know what can realistically be done. At some point the school should surely admit they cannot cope. But they might not. And in that sense maybe I can ask my kid be moved to another class. But that doesn't help the 28 kids left behind.

There's no spaces at other schools. Very long waiting lists. Can't g o private.

OP posts:
trunktoes · 21/01/2022 20:33

@Sockpile @Liveandlove91 I would really like to understand why you think your child deserves more than everyone else's. You say your child deserves an education. He isn't getting one because he disrupting his education. Not just that but he is disrupting the education of 29 other children through. Why is your son more important than the other kids? He's not getting what he needs by being that environment and is ruining the education of kids that could

MNSEN · 21/01/2022 20:36

@inheritancetrack

It's not illegal to exclude a child for a set period or even to permanently exclude a child from a school. You're talking nonsense.

It is not lawful to exclude a student because the school cannot meet a pupil’s special educational needs. In this case the child's evident SEN are not being met so it would be illegal yes. I mean, you could get it through if the parents didn't have the wherewithal to complain but it's still illegal.

Of course adequate provision should be made but this child does not have a diagnosed SN (presumably op would have said) and is therefore just an out of control child.

There's no such thing as 'just an out of control child' in a school. There are children who have SEN and those who aren't deemed to. The kind of behavioural issues that cause damage to property and violence to those around them and require a classroom evacuation in a primary school are absolutely SEN whether there is an underlying neurodevelopmental issue or not. Otherwise what you'd be saying is that a child with no SEN would behave in that way and they wouldn't and don't. Also OP would have absolutely of way of knowing if the child had any kind of diagnosis.

If you're going to tell strangers on the internet what they are saying is nonsense it's worthwhile getting your facts straight.

Smileyaxolotl1 · 21/01/2022 20:39

Let’s just put the child with behaviour problems aside for a second.
A group of children are unable to learn due to constant evacuations of their classroom, a group of children are being banned from going in trips though none of them have done anything to deserve it, a group of children are having their work destroyed and being distressed and scared in their classroom environment. Classes are presumably being left without teachers or TAs while their staff are going to another room to deal
With this issue. A school that is allowing all this is a shit school.

Any decent head for example would have this child in their office within minutes of him starting to destroy work. A decent senco would have him in a room to calm down. They would also be working alongside him and his parents to look at triggers and strategies to stop these meltdowns happening Including reduced or flexible timetables (if certain parts of the day are trigger points) targeted TA support. As well as looking into possibilities of alternative provision.
If you are really not exaggeration I cannot believe that parents have not been regularly writing in and demanding to speak to the head.
Everyone is being severely let down here.

danni0509 · 21/01/2022 20:44

[quote trunktoes]**@Sockpile* @Liveandlove91* I would really like to understand why you think your child deserves more than everyone else's. You say your child deserves an education. He isn't getting one because he disrupting his education. Not just that but he is disrupting the education of 29 other children through. Why is your son more important than the other kids? He's not getting what he needs by being that environment and is ruining the education of kids that could [/quote]
Ridiculous post, with absolutely no knowledge of additional needs. 'He's disrupting his own education' ! You make it sound like he sets out to do just that.

If you want to be angry about it, be angry at the powers that be that have cut funding for these kids down to the barest minimum. Starting on the parents of kids with additional needs, tagging them and expecting them to explain to you why they should be educated, you should be thoroughly ashamed of yourself.

Don't be angry at the parents, who just want what's best for their kids. Just like you do yours Hmm

WyfOfBathe · 21/01/2022 20:44

The one time in my life I've been in an ambulance was when I was in year 6. Another pupil threw a chair across the classroom and it hit me in the head. He'd always had similar behaviour to The Kid in the OP, and by that age he was strong enough to be seriously dangerous.

Saying "well that child has SEN" doesn't make it okay. It may mean the response needs to be different - more support, rather than punishment. I doesn't mean that it's okay for 29 other children to be in physical danger every day.

Don't focus on The Kid in your email, because the school won't be allowed to discuss another pupil with you. Focus on your DD, the impact on her safety and well being, how the school are going to safeguard her.

MNSEN · 21/01/2022 20:45

@itsgettingweird

The child is not at fault here. The school is.

That's very black and white. Some children cannot be supported 1:1 in MS because the environment is wrong.
And if they are taught separately 1:1 then it's obviously not right either because they have a right to a peer group.

I work in special education and I've supported some pupils who even special school isn't right for and secured them placements in specialist schools (often independent and ££££££ssss).
But they've always thrived - and most importantly been happy and able to learn in the right environment.

It's no more fair on the kid who can't cope with MS school to keep them there than it is for the school community as a whole.

And it's no more the schools fault (in most cases as I realise some are shit with send) for not being able to make a child who needs a small class of 6-8 pupils cope with classes of 30 than it is the child's fault they can't cope with busy and noisy environments.

Well I think we are agreeing by disagreeing here because my point is that this child needs different strategies than the 'restraint by male teachers' option that seems to be their go to and it is likely that these needs are so pronounced that a special school is the only real viable option.

But at the very least in the meantime the school should be using a 1-2-1 to keep the other children safe while they explore other options for him. They just sound completely out of their depth, which I think many primary schools are, but they need to seek a solution as the status quo isn't working - primarily it isn't working for 'The Kid'

Liveandlove91 · 21/01/2022 20:45

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Smileyaxolotl1 · 21/01/2022 20:45

Mumofsend
I teach in mainstream in secondary and when I started a few years ago there was a girl in my class a little like your daughter with an ECHP for BESD. Always crying or running out of the room. Not badly behaved but her behaviour caused disruption as it had to be dealt with. I remember thinking at the time that she should might not suit mainstream. But now she is in year 11 and is a changed girl - gets emotional at times but calms herself down saying ‘silly me’ - totally aware of herself and her triggers and really happy.
So I’m really hoping that as she gets older things will fall into place for your daughter. X

MNSEN · 21/01/2022 20:49

[quote Mumofsend]@mnsen oh yes. Went through sendiass, rang every single school within 60 minutes. Spoke to parents. Hassled schools again. There is just nothing for the capable child who needs a small, calm environment that isn't severe behavioural needs. We also looked at indy mainstreams.[/quote]
Are they meeting her needs on the EHCP then? It doesn't sound like it Sad

Flowers
1AngelicFruitCake · 21/01/2022 20:50

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VelvetChairGirl · 21/01/2022 20:51

My son is SEN I dont know what they can do, I've just had a massive argument with him threatening to smash my teeth out because he jumped on the PC while I was using it and refused to acknowledge the word no, so I hit the standby button (it goes into sleep mode if you wake it up it demands a password he doesnt know), he's stormed off saying he's leaving now after kicking stuff and throwing things about, I am ignoring him, I am sure he has gone to hide in the kitchen cupboard and expects me to come look for him, which I am not going to do.

I dont know what you do about violent kids, my son gets counseling he says helps but it doesnt seem to, he gets more and more entitled the older he gets, he is meant to have anger management classes at some point and yes he has a EHCP.

he did goto a specialist SEN place for two terms but they are tiny and they only get put in those places if the school strongly demands it or they get excluded, my son was temporarily excluded from primary 5 times. there were school trips but he was only allowed to go if I went with him to control him.

My son doesnt smash up others work but it sounds like screaming for attention and determination to be the centre of attention to me, my kids secondary school gave him a time out room, they gave him a yellow card system so he could get a time out when he was feeling angry upto 3 times a day and a support teacher that worked with him in every class he was in, like a mum in school.

a lot of that isnt available at secondary but he still has a yellow card with 2 uses a day.

Liveandlove91 · 21/01/2022 20:57

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trunktoes · 21/01/2022 20:58

@VelvetChairGirl that sounds awful. It must be so difficult

WyfOfBathe · 21/01/2022 20:58

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danni0509 · 21/01/2022 20:59

@Liveandlove91 don't explain yourself. You don't have too, any parent with a child with SEND will understand your frustrations. Thanks

Liveandlove91 · 21/01/2022 20:59

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trunktoes · 21/01/2022 21:00

@WyfOfBathe yes all the other 29 kids should leave school so one can behave aggressively it seems

Liveandlove91 · 21/01/2022 21:01

@danni0509 thank you. Xxx it really does annoy me I fought so hard for the help for my son and still am these people have no clue ...

Liveandlove91 · 21/01/2022 21:02

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trunktoes · 21/01/2022 21:03

No one says anyone is aggressive 24/7 but if he is aggressive towards other children at any time that is unacceptable and if it happens frequently he shouldn't be in that setting.

autienotnaughty · 21/01/2022 21:05

Your problem isn't with the child it's with the school. They are not sufficiently managing this child and it's impacting on the child's education and all the other children in this classes education including your daughter. The child obviously needs a one to one and sensory breaks before things escalate and if the child's behaviour/needs can not be met then alternative education is needed. It's not the child's fault but it's for the sake of the child and all the class you absolutely should say something. I would be polite but clear that the school need to do more and if nothing happens I would take it further. If for no other reason than making sure that child is supported properly.

WyfOfBathe · 21/01/2022 21:05

@Liveandlove91

The way your describing people with additional needs is disturbing like they are not human.... listen if a child wasn't safe in school they wouldn't be their . ...End of
listen if a child wasn't safe in school they wouldn't be their

That's simply not true. As I said up thread, a pupil throwing a chair injured me badly enough to need an ambulance for head injuries.

Some things have changed since I was at school, but even today there are children who display dangerous behaviour. OP has said that the child in her DD's class also throws chairs. Whether it's his "fault" or not, whether he has SEN or not, you cannot seriously be saying that is safe.

Smileyaxolotl1 · 21/01/2022 21:06

Liveandletlive91
While I have seen the sort of things you are referring to on here no one has been horrible about the child at all.
Is it not dehumanising a child to suggest that if he has repeated violent and destructive outbursts in the setting he is in then the setting is probably not suitable or much more needs to be done. It is not fair to sacrifice the safety, welfare and educational needs of 29 children for the benefit of one.

bobisbored · 21/01/2022 21:07

OP I'm sorry your DD is having this experience. It's not acceptable. The thing is, The Kid has clearly got some additional needs. The school are struggling to meet those needs. Now here's the really shit part. The school can't just exclude The Kid if there is no where for them to go. If they need specialist provision and it's not available, the school just have to suck it up. We have a Kid in my school. We evacuate the class most days. The Kid swears, spits, kicks, bites, punches and pulls hair. Fortunately it's mostly staff who are in the firing line. He trashes the classroom at least once a week. His parents are called to collect him early a lot! It's an impossible situation for everyone involved. The only solution is for the government to fund SEND provision. They won't. I hope your situation improves.

Mumofsend · 21/01/2022 21:08

@MNSEN Her starting point 2 years ago was hysterical going in every single day. She was just running off when overwhelmed and seeking out small hidey holes. They would find her curled up under chairs and in between shelves and all sorts of places, the smaller the better. Early year 1 (after march-july in class with 6 children then going back to 30 in the september) we hit a crisis point where she had the class evacuated as she had a screaming throwing meltdown. She had only managed an hour in class for 10 days. I was called in and she was under a table sobbing. She had bit a member of staff to the point of breaking the skin. This was aged 5. We put her on a part timetable and built her up very slowly, at her pace and with a huge amount of work between me and school.

Now we are at an odd point where she is happy going into school and she isn't running off anymore so in that regards, she is doing a huge amount better. She is happy in school, has 2 dedicated 1-1s split between AM and PM. She does the mornings in class with a scheduled sensory break and an extra if needed. Her 1-1s are both excellent at spotting the early getting jiggly signs and all she needs is a lap of the playground and it resets her.

Afternoons are more hit and miss. She does well if it's something like science or geography. She struggles with PE and things that are too unstructured. She is probably doing 50% of the afternoons in class. School realised she struggles with afternoons so her SALT and reading interventions are both in the afternoon to kill two birds with one stone. If she is doing well in class they will skip the reading intervention to promote her being in class instead.

It is slowly working and she is happy which has been my focus. She can't do it at all without her dedicated 1-1 support.

I got her plan rewritten summer term last year to include the correct training for her 1-1s which has probably made the biggest difference.

Now that she is happy and settled with the set up any move has to be better for her for it to be sensible to do so.

We looked at resource bases too as that theoretically would probably be the dream solution for her but all the ones within distance are unit for mornings, mainstream for PMs and she needs the opposite so would be spending PMs alone if in the unit.

It is a minefield.