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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

What can realistically be done with violent kids in classroom?

403 replies

EdithRea · 21/01/2022 17:06

Since Reception one boy has been a problem in the classroom. Aggressive, swearing, tears down the displays, rips up children's work, throws chairs, uses the f and c word at the teacher and screams throughout class.

Instead of regaling me with nice tales of crayoning or writing, my youngest instead reported that various male teachers from around the school frequently have to be called to the classroom to restrain this child. Hearing a 4 year old talk about such things was a shock, but it became our day to day reality. The boy is violent to classmates and I told her to keep as far away as she could, to stay with a teacher if necessary, as he 'looks up girls skirts' and tears out their hair.

He has been known to gleefully kill insects in front of the other children, which left my child utterly distraught at the time. One was a butterfly.

A few years pass. The kid remains problematic and class projects and plans are cancelled due to him. The entire playground needs to be split up especially to 'keep him away' from starting fights with other boys.

Pandemic hits, homeworking, I slowly forget The Kid. She goes back, and I am reminded of The Kid. The displays are torn down again. More chairs thrown. I see the child arriving at school. He's obviously much larger. Male teachers are still brought in to control him. He is often removed from the room and taught elsewhere, meaning no teaching assistant cover for the class.

Today a science fair type treat for the children was ruined because instead of building their experiments and displaying their models, the boy went around the room and tore everyone's work to shreds, and again had to be restrained and removed by male teachers. I reiterate that only because it must be his size, or an indicator as to the level of his aggression, that they call the blokes in.

Back in the days that school trips existed, her class never went. They were supposed to get 'a treat' last year which got cancelled after The Kid smashed a newly refurbished bathroom up, tearing up tiles and plaster.

What can realistically be done? There's been years of this now, and my child sounds so bloody upset and defeated. School is miserable. Class is just a battle between keeping the kids safe from this boy. They're watching adults struggling with a raging boy instead of learning. She's worn down by the most shocking, vile language. She's afraid of the chair-throwing and table upending. And when he's 11 it's going to be a lot worse.

I don't know what can realistically be done. At some point the school should surely admit they cannot cope. But they might not. And in that sense maybe I can ask my kid be moved to another class. But that doesn't help the 28 kids left behind.

There's no spaces at other schools. Very long waiting lists. Can't g o private.

OP posts:
Strictly1 · 21/01/2022 19:50

A school can say they can't meet needs but still be forced to have them , have all professionals in place to support and if they have an EHCP, it's incredibly difficult to exclude and have parents win an appeal using the equality act. Schools are left with little, if any, options and it is wrong for everyone involved.

Autismandgin · 21/01/2022 19:54

Bloody loved Jackanory!! Grin

easyluckyfree · 21/01/2022 19:55

@Liveandlove91 are you aware that the OP is not actually talking about your son?

It’s a fact of life that it is very hard to manage the needs of a child with SEN when that child is really violent without disrupting the education of the other children in the class. The education system does not handle it well - it’s set up to fail, and it’s the children who suffer. It’s so incredibly difficult to get children the support that they need, as I’m sure you know. The issue is that just because it’s incredibly hard for the children with SEN, it can also be frightening for other members of the class (including other children with SEN that presents differently), and can really negatively impact their education.

If this OP is accurate, the needs of one child are being put before the needs of all the other children, but on top of that - the needs of that child aren’t even being met. Multiple adult men restraining and removing a child regularly shows that the system they have in place is not working for anyone.

And the solution is - what?! Like, it’s fucking impossible to get appropriate provision half the time. There’s so much red tape. Obviously you know this - I’m not telling you it. I am just saying that in this situation you must be able to see no child is getting an adequate treatment or education.

inheritancetrack · 21/01/2022 19:56

@MNSEN

Until that provision is provided he needs excluding for the safety and mental well-being of the other children. One child's needs cannot top those of the whole class.

No. Such an exclusion would be illegal. He needs support and the school would be expected to put in 1-2-1 support before applying for the funding through an EHCP.

They should also be saying the cannot meet his needs and hksupoorting his family in finding specialist provision. They have a legal duty to keep all of the children safe. The child should be supported correctly so that is possible.

The child is not at fault here. The school is.

It's not illegal to exclude a child for a set period or even to permanently exclude a child from a school. You're talking nonsense.

Of course adequate provision should be made but this child does not have a diagnosed SN (presumably op would have said) and is therefore just an out of control child. Alternative provision should be explored or more supervision. Until that's provided or looked into the other children need protecting. What kind of environment is that for a child to learn in? Fear, anxiety and the threat of violence. It's absurd.

OnceuponaRainbow18 · 21/01/2022 19:59

@inheritancetrack

It’s really hard to permanently excluded a child, we tried after gathering evidence for 2 years and the governors rejected the exclusion because the kid had once been in foster care. It also costs the school alot of moment to permanently exclude.

Grida · 21/01/2022 20:00

Write to the school. Your child is having to deal with a situation that you would be unwilling to put up with. You are not actually helping the school or the other child by keeping quiet about it.

liveforsummer · 21/01/2022 20:03

We have dc like this at work, the school happily admit we can't cope but we are in a deprived area and he's not the only one but tbf he's the worst (only 6 atm) there simply aren't the spaces in the special schools to move him on site wires no other choice

Mumofsend · 21/01/2022 20:03

@inheritancetrack the OP very clearly doesn't know enough to have any idea whether or not the child has SEN

Anna10309 · 21/01/2022 20:04

This child needs to be excluded permanently. So one child's education trumps every single other child? I can't believe the school or parents have allowed this to go on.

Mumofsend · 21/01/2022 20:05

@Anna10309 no they don't. They need to be supported properly.

itsgettingweird · 21/01/2022 20:05

@Liveandlove91

It's people like you op that make partens of sen child feel ashamed like they shouldn't be aloud they are human and like your child need education but extra help that doesn't make them less of a human they need to learn new strategies and understand feelings etc. I bet u stand in the playground watching while this child is having a meltdown thinking to yourself omg what a terrible child that's the parents fault . This world is mean enough without parents being mean to children with special needs you should be teaching your children about these disabilities and not all children are the same !!!!
I don't get any of that from the OP Confused

And I'm the mum of the child with send who's thrown chairs etc.

I never felt other pupils should be collateral damage for my ds being wrongly placed any more than he should have (and me as well).

It's totally wrong that children aren't correctly placed without a fight (often costly). But it's also wrong that other children are denied an education too.

There's never an easy option or balance but one has to be sought out.

Liveandlove91 · 21/01/2022 20:07

@Anna10309 how has the parents let this go on !!what a ridiculous comment yes because the parents just want this . 🙄 outrageous get rid of them they ain't some moldy item you can just put in the trash

Liveandlove91 · 21/01/2022 20:09

Nobody should be collateral damage I never said that the child needs support not neglect

itsgettingweird · 21/01/2022 20:11

The child is not at fault here. The school is.

That's very black and white. Some children cannot be supported 1:1 in MS because the environment is wrong.
And if they are taught separately 1:1 then it's obviously not right either because they have a right to a peer group.

I work in special education and I've supported some pupils who even special school isn't right for and secured them placements in specialist schools (often independent and ££££££ssss).
But they've always thrived - and most importantly been happy and able to learn in the right environment.

It's no more fair on the kid who can't cope with MS school to keep them there than it is for the school community as a whole.

And it's no more the schools fault (in most cases as I realise some are shit with send) for not being able to make a child who needs a small class of 6-8 pupils cope with classes of 30 than it is the child's fault they can't cope with busy and noisy environments.

Hawkins001 · 21/01/2022 20:12

All the best op, I understand your frustrations and perspectives, and I can also see why private schools exist. I cannot comment on this case with out knowing all prevalent facts, other than to say, why does the school not realise that more needs to be achieved ?

itsgettingweird · 21/01/2022 20:13

@Liveandlove91

Nobody should be collateral damage I never said that the child needs support not neglect
But you realise not every child supported in MS manages Ms right?
1AngelicFruitCake · 21/01/2022 20:18

@Liveandlove91

It's people like you op that make partens of sen child feel ashamed like they shouldn't be aloud they are human and like your child need education but extra help that doesn't make them less of a human they need to learn new strategies and understand feelings etc. I bet u stand in the playground watching while this child is having a meltdown thinking to yourself omg what a terrible child that's the parents fault . This world is mean enough without parents being mean to children with special needs you should be teaching your children about these disabilities and not all children are the same !!!!
And it’s people like you who show no compassion for those children who are having to witness violence and feel Scared for their own safety. The OP never said they blamed the child. But all children deserve go feel Safe, including your child and children without those needs. I have a daughter who has been groped, yes groped at the age of 6 by a boy with needs. She has been threatened by him as well. I have taught my daughter that whilst she can feel compassion for how hard this boy is finding things, he is not more important than she is just because he gets lots of adult attention and that she is to shout/scream anytime he does anything he shouldn’t. My daughter deserves to feel safe, the boys needs so not mean my daughter has to put up with it!
1AngelicFruitCake · 21/01/2022 20:20

@Liveandlove91

So what you suggest the child gets removed because the parents don't want that kid their because they are more a handful to others lol so what u geoint to get a patition going .how would that make you or a child feel . 🤔 I stand by what I have said nothing I have said is wrong ! My child can be aggressive and disruptive so that means he can't go to school... no I think not
Your child can be aggressive…re-read your own posts!
inheritancetrack · 21/01/2022 20:20

[quote Mumofsend]@inheritancetrack the OP very clearly doesn't know enough to have any idea whether or not the child has SEN[/quote]
After 4 years a child would have been referred and diagnosed. If diagnosed they would get an ehcp and the support they need. OP says the child is not supported and this appalling situation for the child, the other children and the teachers has been allowed to continue. If the child does have an SN and a 1 to 1 or additional support, then it's clearly inadequate and the school needs to get the help the child needs or for the child to be relocated to a unit that meets their needs.

It's not fair that this child is allowed to become so distressed and/or aggressive they throw chairs around, or for the other children to live in fear.

Autismandgin · 21/01/2022 20:21

Hello, when I was a child I was considered SEN because of my autism / meltdowns / ADHD and god knows what else.

I do think OP has a fair point. I can also see why private schools exist. I can also see how being permanently excluded can affect a child. I can also see why parents of similar children take it very personally.

I see all the sides. It’s not an easy situation.

However in this instance, the school has let down the whole class (including the child who is causing havoc)

I don’t even know why I’m typing this, I guess I feel like I have a similar experience on both sides of this (I was the child with SEN who had meltdowns that other children were scared of). And now my DD is in a school very similar and there is a child in her class who also causes chaos / damage / injury

A truly rotten situation for all (especially the little boy himself!)

danni0509 · 21/01/2022 20:24

The problem is, any intervention with these kids is only really a sticking plaster at school. Children are growing up in chaotic, abusive homes where the so-called adults don’t give a flying shit. Even when agencies get involved.

@Ionlydomassiveones bit of a sweeping statement to make, ? My 8 year old ds can behave similarly to the OP original post, he has a multitude of additional needs, is medicated, attends specialist school, has all the support in place. At home and school.

He doesn't live in a chaotic or abusive home and I do give a flying shit. You can't just assume all children with challenging behaviours are being dragged up.

Liveandlove91 · 21/01/2022 20:25

Show no compassion for people slating people that clearly need help . You meed help your living in lala land have no fucking clue what's its like sit on here saying such about child that clearly not getting rhe help they need. No it's unfair that you think that because this child is aggressive etc he should be removed they have to learn to control themselves their is refusal process and such .

Liveandlove91 · 21/01/2022 20:26

Referral *

Teenylittlefella · 21/01/2022 20:27

It is the school's fault.

  1. The other children should not in any way be told that a trip has been cancelled because of one child's behaviour. That is outrageous and will lead to a perpetuation of social exclusion.
  1. The school should have coordinated specialist input and arranged suitable support. They sound completely reactive. Where is the proactive support? Couldn't they predict that an unusual day would trigger a stress response? Have they ever done behaviour analysis or got professional advice?

However, all these people saying "he needs special school" are clearly unaware that LA hands are tied here, unless that is parental preference on EHCP or at review. Parental preference trumps professional advice. The LA would have to name specialist provision against parental preference, they would then be taken to tribunal and almost certainly lose. The only way kids get to move to specialist school is if the school discharges it's duties according to the code of practice and obtain an EHCP, and the parent requests specialist.

In my experience about 95 percent of parents will accept professional advice (eg from an Ed psych) who says that their child's needs would be better met in a smaller, more specialist provision. However 5 percent will insist on mainstream, at least initially. It can be a lengthy process to accept the nature and extent of your child's needs.

1AngelicFruitCake · 21/01/2022 20:32

@Liveandlove91

Show no compassion for people slating people that clearly need help . You meed help your living in lala land have no fucking clue what's its like sit on here saying such about child that clearly not getting rhe help they need. No it's unfair that you think that because this child is aggressive etc he should be removed they have to learn to control themselves their is refusal process and such .
How was the OP slating the child? Or do you expect other parents to put up with the 29 children being in an unsafe situation because it suits the one child? Schools spend so much of their time and attention on the same children and have to neglect the rest of the class to deal with aggressive behaviour. Not the fault of the child but something needs go be done.

I’d be very interested to know how you’d feel if your child was hit/spat at/sworn at by another child? Going off your aggressive tone on here I could well imagine that you’d be in school shouting the odds about your child being treated badly (not seeing the irony that your child is usually the one affecting others!) One day your child could be on the receiving end of this and then you’ll have an idea of what OP is talking about.