What can realistically be done with violent kids in classroom?

[EdithRea]

Since Reception one boy has been a problem in the classroom. Aggressive, swearing, tears down the displays, rips up children's work, throws chairs, uses the f and c word at the teacher and screams throughout class.

Instead of regaling me with nice tales of crayoning or writing, my youngest instead reported that various male teachers from around the school frequently have to be called to the classroom to restrain this child. Hearing a 4 year old talk about such things was a shock, but it became our day to day reality. The boy is violent to classmates and I told her to keep as far away as she could, to stay with a teacher if necessary, as he 'looks up girls skirts' and tears out their hair.

He has been known to gleefully kill insects in front of the other children, which left my child utterly distraught at the time. One was a butterfly.

A few years pass. The kid remains problematic and class projects and plans are cancelled due to him. The entire playground needs to be split up especially to 'keep him away' from starting fights with other boys.

Pandemic hits, homeworking, I slowly forget The Kid. She goes back, and I am reminded of The Kid. The displays are torn down again. More chairs thrown. I see the child arriving at school. He's obviously much larger. Male teachers are still brought in to control him. He is often removed from the room and taught elsewhere, meaning no teaching assistant cover for the class.

Today a science fair type treat for the children was ruined because instead of building their experiments and displaying their models, the boy went around the room and tore everyone's work to shreds, and again had to be restrained and removed by male teachers. I reiterate that only because it must be his size, or an indicator as to the level of his aggression, that they call the blokes in.

Back in the days that school trips existed, her class never went. They were supposed to get 'a treat' last year which got cancelled after The Kid smashed a newly refurbished bathroom up, tearing up tiles and plaster.

What can realistically be done? There's been years of this now, and my child sounds so bloody upset and defeated. School is miserable. Class is just a battle between keeping the kids safe from this boy. They're watching adults struggling with a raging boy instead of learning. She's worn down by the most shocking, vile language. She's afraid of the chair-throwing and table upending. And when he's 11 it's going to be a lot worse.

I don't know what can realistically be done. At some point the school should surely admit they cannot cope. But they might not. And in that sense maybe I can ask my kid be moved to another class. But that doesn't help the 28 kids left behind.

There's no spaces at other schools. Very long waiting lists. Can't g o private.

I'd disagree that the interests of the delinquent should be considered first. In my book the 29 other kids should be the priority. Universal provision means the majority needs prevail. The miscreant should be in a PRU.

@XingMing

I'd disagree that the interests of the delinquent should be considered first. In my book the 29 other kids should be the priority. Universal provision means the majority needs prevail. The miscreant should be in a PRU.

I agree with you. Let's focus on the children who want to learn.

@User48751490 that's really unfair. I imagine the child absolutely does want to learn. How about removing the barriers that prevent him managing his education instead of implying he just doesn't want to learn

ANd people wonder why teachers leave teaching.......... why do they stay in it?

@Liveandlove91

U have no clue about life in general you have no clue what us parents have to go through to get the help...

I understand your perspectives and frustrations, but at the same time, what about the others in the classes that want to progress but yet, are held back due to the behaviour of an individual ?

[quote Mumofsend]@User48751490 that's really unfair. I imagine the child absolutely does want to learn. How about removing the barriers that prevent him managing his education instead of implying he just doesn't want to learn [/quote]
Good grief, the teacher is one of the strictest yet she struggles to cope with the unruly pupil in her class.

One thing I do agree on is these children should have the correct support mechanisms in place. Mainstream isn't working for the ones I know of...

@User48751490, clearly this child is refusing education: why do you think otherwise?

Oh and the other unruly pupil had to be assigned to the other class because DS' s class teacher couldn't cope.

@ConsuelaHammock

What happens to children like this child when they are old enough to be prosecuted for aggressive behaviour? At what age do they accept / learn that their behaviour could end with a prison sentence? Or do we make excuses for them indefinitely? At least by age 10 the parents of a child who has been on the receiving end of a violent child’s outburst can call the police.

Well, many of them do end up in prison. Or homeless. Or dead. We fail children with SEN routinely in this country (and in doing so, fail the other children trying to learn alongside them) and yes, the result is ruined lives.

Not sure how this is supposed to bolster the point you thought you were making, though

@Mumofsend I don't think anyone disagrees with that. It's very difficult though when you have a very aggresssive sweaty mother on the thread who is advocating that her child who she has admitted is frequently aggressive deserves to be at that school. If she was arguing that he should have the right provision I don't think anyone would argue but it appears she just thinks as long as her kid is in mainstream the others just need to lump it.

I'm quite disgusted by how you are talking about 'the kid'. You realise he is a child? A child who is behaving like that for a reason? You don't sound very sympathetic or kind.

@XingMing

I'd disagree that the interests of the delinquent should be considered first. In my book the 29 other kids should be the priority. Universal provision means the majority needs prevail. The miscreant should be in a PRU.

What your book called? Let us know so I can put it on my do not buy list. Thanks.

@Patapouf

I'm quite disgusted by how you are talking about 'the kid'. You realise he is a child? A child who is behaving like that for a reason? You don't sound very sympathetic or kind.

'Kid' has three letters. 'Child' has five. I suspect that is all there is to it.

OP has to advocate for her own child and this includes ensuring she gets the education which she is entitled to. An education which she currently isn't getting.

The disruptive child has his own parent/s to advocate for them - to make sure they are getting the education they are entitled to and are not currently getting.

Don't pretend you wouldn't feel the same as OP if this was your own daughter's education being disrupted.

The OP uses the kid to describe the child, and her child and the other children. She also uses various other words to describe all the parties. Why should she be sympathetic? Her daughters had years of this

VelvetChairGirl
Thanks for your detailed response.
Hopefully the high amount of supply teachers should reduce a little as we get towards summer and there is less covid and general illness so there will be more consistency for yr son.
In terms of exclusion to be honest I am probably thinking more of managed moves or respite/ removal to another facility on a temporary basis. I’m pretty sure they happen to kids with ECHPs though to be honest most of the worst behaved children I’ve dealt with haven’t had them.
The time out things are awkward as it is incredibly frustrating if a child is rude to you and at the point when you are trying to deal with the rudeness, move him to a different seat or whatever he sticks the time out card in your face and laughs at the fact that you have to let him leave. I have seen children sitting quietly getting worked up and show their cards and felt that was an excellent use of it.

@Charliesgotachocolatefactory

I don't mean you can't also say "I understand it is difficult and you have to balance needs. ".

@NumberTheory in my experience, this is the time not to say these things. You don’t talk about balance, you are painting a picture about how awful it is for your own child. If you show any sympathy, then that just opens the door for ‘I’m glad you understand what a difficult situation we’re in’ and then they don’t do anything.

I’m a total people pleaser and this was really hard for me, but in my opinion it has to simply be “this is the negative impact on my child, what are you going to do about it?”

If you can't use phrases like that and hold your line then much better not to use them.

I'm not a people pleaser so if they said something like "I'm glad you understand what a difficult situation were in" and didn't make a concrete commitment to safeguarding my child I'd likely say something like "when I say I understand you have to balance needs I was reminding you that you have to balance needs. At the moment there is no balance and my DD is suffering trauma because of that."

One of the great things about confidentiality in these situations is that you can say, "I don't know, and shouldn't know what's going on with other kids, so I'm just here to talk about DD and the affect experiencing violence everyday at school is having on her. It's horrendous and unsafe and can't continue."

I have a large scar above my nose (4 stitches) caused by a boy who threw a chime bar at me, despite his 1-1 help (not reacting quick enough). He thought it was hilarious that I had so much blood running down my face causing me to splutter as it was going in my mouth. This caused yet another evacuation of my class - they were used to it.

He had come from a school where he threw a chair at his teacher and she miscarried the next day.

I had to evacuate my class regularly.

He had support on a morning from a man from a specialist school. He was fairly compliant on a morning. At lunchtime the man went and in the afternoon his support was a 1-1 from school as per his 'statement'. His Ritalin wore off by lunchtime and he didn't get a second dose. Apparently it wasn't appropriate.

It was like watching a Punch and Judy show from my point of view (teacher) as the 1-1 support wrestled with resources and him at the back of the class every afternoon. Together, the noise they made was not compatible with learning.

He didn't take part in any lesson and never produced any work.

It wasn't fair on the rest of the class. The disruption was constant. The head teacher refused to have him sent to her office - if the 1-1 took him out of class he would run riot banging on the doors and windows of other classes.

Lots of children were injured by this boy. He burst a child's eardrum. He dislocated a child's shoulder. He would kick the legs out from under children when they walked past him. He smashed a child's head into the fire alarm and the fire service turned up. His verbal abuse was beyond anything I'd heard from a primary school child. He tore clothes by swinging children round by their uniform. When asked why he had attacked one particular girl several times (her mother had called the police) he said it was because he liked her hair. No action was taken.

Parents would complain endlessly.

His afternoon 1-1 would beg and plead with him to try to calm him down.

Meeting after meeting would be arranged to discuss strategies but the support he had in the morning would always insist that he was compliant, implying that the school was trying to expel him and put the responsibility for him on a different school. We were his 3rd school within the LA and he had previously moved from a different local authority. So it appeared he never had a full year in any one school.

I got the police involved with regards to the assault - the second time the police had dealt with him whilst at our school. It went nowhere as he said that he had not intended the chime bar to hit me.

I dreaded going to school.

He was there for two terms until the end of year 6 was reached. His mother complained when the head teacher decided not to include him in the yr 6 leavers end of year treat.

We heard that he was the same in High School and excluded fairly quickly. He always ended up being placed back in other high schools and taxied about because provision was getting further and further away from his home.

My head teacher told me he was dismissed from the Army. He was in a young offenders institute. He's now in an adult prison. He's 22 and had beaten his pregnant girlfriend unconscious.

I'm not sure who was failed.

I thought that it was the staff and the children, who had to tread on egg shells and wrangle his behaviour. We were scared of him.

I would like to think that the safety of staff and other children would be put before a single child.

He caused mayhem.

He still does.

Violence does not belong in the classroom, never mind in wider society. Why should other children/school staff have to put up with it when it's not 'put up with' outside of school, in the general community?

Don't talk to me about 'unmet' needs. I was the SENCO there for 20 yrs and I bent over backwards to meet the needs of hundreds of children and successfully kept them in mainstream school as long as parents were in agreement. I arranged transitions to high schools and had great relationships with many other professionals and agencies involved. I mentored other SENCOs for the LA. I was very experienced in this area - I have two children (now adults) who had Statements of Special Educational Needs (now EHCPs).

People have to accept that some children need to be educated in more specialist provision.

Could you cope @User48751490? If you were a teacher, responsible and answerable and judged for the educational progress of 30 children, one of whom was hellbent on derailing anything and everything you tried to achieve? That's a surefire way to demoralise any young teacher with that child in the class. Frankly, I'd take a job (any job) that didn't require me to deal with a delinquent face to face. Education is completely wasted on some people, because they are not educable. It's not a fashionable opinion.

@EdithRea we had a year of exactly the same situation. Chairs thrown, teachers kicked and spat at, and classrooms put in lockdown whilst the boy was brought under control. We met with the school repeatedly but it still escalated to the point where one child ended up in A&E when he was badly hurt by the child.

A group of us (parents whose DC were similarly affected i.e. being physically hurt) forced the county into a face to face meeting where we demanded solutions for both our children and the very troubled boy. It only stopped when the boy finished year 6 and left (DS was in the year below).

DS was hit, kicked, had furniture pushed onto him and had many days where he couldn't play with his friends in the playground because he was the target of the day and had to be kept apart. We were told it wasn't fair for the boy to be alone every playtime so often the targeted child was the one made to sit in the library.

DS was anxious and suffered terrible nightmares at times throughout this period.

My advice is to change schools if you can. We couldn't (rural) and DS didn't want to leave his friends, and, we knew we only had to endure it until the end of the year. I don't think schools or teachers are equipped to deal with children who behave in this way, no matter how much they might try.

@Smileyaxolotl1

VelvetChairGirl Thanks for your detailed response. Hopefully the high amount of supply teachers should reduce a little as we get towards summer and there is less covid and general illness so there will be more consistency for yr son. In terms of exclusion to be honest I am probably thinking more of managed moves or respite/ removal to another facility on a temporary basis. I’m pretty sure they happen to kids with ECHPs though to be honest most of the worst behaved children I’ve dealt with haven’t had them. The time out things are awkward as it is incredibly frustrating if a child is rude to you and at the point when you are trying to deal with the rudeness, move him to a different seat or whatever he sticks the time out card in your face and laughs at the fact that you have to let him leave. I have seen children sitting quietly getting worked up and show their cards and felt that was an excellent use of it.

Well I can see when he is being a git frankly he has a smile on his face and when he's lost it... when he has lost it he goes mental does mad laughter and starts hitting himself in the head and shouting about killing himself.

I would expect the schools to see the difference and understand too they have training I dont.

the yellow cards only have a limited number of uses, they were not happy with 3 and we agreed on 2 a day but I am not happy with the duration, no one can cool down in a two minute time out let alone someone with suspect aspergers and anxiety problems, if anything knowing yo only have 2 mins in the corridor will increase anxiety.

VelvetChairGirl
Totally agree that 2 minutes is not enough at all - I have never heard of them having limits like that. Totally counter productive.

How sad that the OP's daughter is so desensitised to the violence in her classroom that she doesn't always think it is worth mentioning.

How sad that this boy is so traumatised, and how frightened he must be to be regularly restrained.

The boy needs to be in a setting that meets his needs and in your shoes OP, I would be writing to school to try to give them some evidence to get more support or a different solution. But I would also put my child first. My extensive sympathy for the other child wouldn't stop me moving mine.

VelvetChairGirl
Also it might be worth emailing his teachers with what you just said about the ‘firm and consistent’ thing. As you say they probably think they are being nice but aren’t helping.
I would be very happy to receive an email from a parent encouraging me to be firmer/clearer with their child.

VelvetChairGirl, you seriously think that a 22 year old fresh from university and a one year PGCE course (which is very hard work) is equipped to cope with that kind of behaviour? Or should be able to? Frankly most prison officers would resort to physical restraint fsced with anyone so out of control.

That’s exactly the point I’m trying to make Sadpaper.
Parents won’t accept that their child needs more help than a mainstream school can provide and yet they still fight for it!? And the child ends up in care or prison, on the streets or dead. Children are being failed by everyone who doesn’t want to be seen to be the bad guy. Teachers tiptoe around them and they get rewarded for being good for a day when other children are good for years.
I don’t think the current education system suits these children at all. I genuinely don’t know what the answer is though. And yes they are only children . Angry children who become angry and dangerous adults.