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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

What can realistically be done with violent kids in classroom?

403 replies

EdithRea · 21/01/2022 17:06

Since Reception one boy has been a problem in the classroom. Aggressive, swearing, tears down the displays, rips up children's work, throws chairs, uses the f and c word at the teacher and screams throughout class.

Instead of regaling me with nice tales of crayoning or writing, my youngest instead reported that various male teachers from around the school frequently have to be called to the classroom to restrain this child. Hearing a 4 year old talk about such things was a shock, but it became our day to day reality. The boy is violent to classmates and I told her to keep as far away as she could, to stay with a teacher if necessary, as he 'looks up girls skirts' and tears out their hair.

He has been known to gleefully kill insects in front of the other children, which left my child utterly distraught at the time. One was a butterfly.

A few years pass. The kid remains problematic and class projects and plans are cancelled due to him. The entire playground needs to be split up especially to 'keep him away' from starting fights with other boys.

Pandemic hits, homeworking, I slowly forget The Kid. She goes back, and I am reminded of The Kid. The displays are torn down again. More chairs thrown. I see the child arriving at school. He's obviously much larger. Male teachers are still brought in to control him. He is often removed from the room and taught elsewhere, meaning no teaching assistant cover for the class.

Today a science fair type treat for the children was ruined because instead of building their experiments and displaying their models, the boy went around the room and tore everyone's work to shreds, and again had to be restrained and removed by male teachers. I reiterate that only because it must be his size, or an indicator as to the level of his aggression, that they call the blokes in.

Back in the days that school trips existed, her class never went. They were supposed to get 'a treat' last year which got cancelled after The Kid smashed a newly refurbished bathroom up, tearing up tiles and plaster.

What can realistically be done? There's been years of this now, and my child sounds so bloody upset and defeated. School is miserable. Class is just a battle between keeping the kids safe from this boy. They're watching adults struggling with a raging boy instead of learning. She's worn down by the most shocking, vile language. She's afraid of the chair-throwing and table upending. And when he's 11 it's going to be a lot worse.

I don't know what can realistically be done. At some point the school should surely admit they cannot cope. But they might not. And in that sense maybe I can ask my kid be moved to another class. But that doesn't help the 28 kids left behind.

There's no spaces at other schools. Very long waiting lists. Can't g o private.

OP posts:
Liveandlove91 · 21/01/2022 21:42

@trunktoes where did I say that it was his arm ?? I didn't lmao 😂 so a blind person isn't able to bite someone and because my son has needs your basically saying he caused her to do it ??? Outrageous

HereBeFuckery · 21/01/2022 21:43

@Liveandlove91
You seem to think that there's an 'othering' of SEND children, but you said

"I fought so hard for the help for my son and still am these people have no clue"

Calling people who disagree with you 'these people' is the same thing as you object to with respect to your child. You are being rude and angry for no reason. Plenty of posters have said they are teachers or SEN specialists. They do have a clue. To say otherwise is rude.

Parents of children who have been hurt are going to want to protect their child. That's all you are doing, and all they are doing.

I'm sorry that your child clearly causes you pain, anguish and unhappiness. Please don't turn this into a bunfight.

Mrstamborineman · 21/01/2022 21:43

You sound awful! Judgemental and seriously have no idea that all children or indeed adults experience the world the same as you or your child. Wow, just wow, “the kid” says it all about you.

Foxyloxy1plus1 · 21/01/2022 21:43

I think the school does have a plan to deal with this child. The plan is to get male members of staff to remove him from the classroom. That’s a plan which can’t be effective long term, because it means other classes are being interrupted, as well as the class that OP’s DD is in.

None of us know whether, or how far along the school is with getting additional help for this child. They may have strategies in place, they may be applying for an EHCP, they may be trying to work with the parents or getting an EP report or asking for support from other professionals. The OP won’t know this because it isn’t her business. The school can’t discuss the child with her, just as they can’t discuss her DD with other parents.

What is her business though, is that her child is unhappy at school and some, if not all, of that unhappiness stems from having her education and experiences affected by the actions of another member of the class. Any communication with the school should be along those lines- that OP’s daughter is unhappy and OP wants to know how she and the school can work together to support her.

It can take time to get the EHCP agreed and even longer for the support to be put in place. Then a decision would have to be made about whether mainstream with support is appropriate, or whether specialist provision is needed and if so, what type of specialist provision. All this, of course, is very expensive

All OP wants is for her daughter to be happy at school and have positive experiences. That’s the approach to take in communicating and I do think it’s important to express the concerns and get support.

Permanent exclusions are very much frowned upon by Ofsted and particularly so for children with SEND. *Liveandlove91 there are some children who find it very difficult to manage in mainstream and they need support. Of course they are entitled to an education, but it has to be an education that meets their needs. Every child is entitled to an education that meets their needs and it seems that that isn’t happening in this case. The OP has been very measured in her approach, but her child is her priority, just as your child is yours.

Onionpatch · 21/01/2022 21:44

It is possible to exclude pupis. Exclusions are rising and children with SEN are more likely to be excluded than other groups. The main reasons for exclusions is persistant disruptive /dangerous behaviour. Schools do have to show they did everything to support a child for it to be legal and some schools dont do everything or dont keep good records, but plenty do.
I also am unclear what the cost is - do people mean the child then be entitled to a place at a PRU or the cost of providing necessary support? I dont think there is any fine or charge to an exclusion.

Mrstamborineman · 21/01/2022 21:44

not all children

Liveandlove91 · 21/01/2022 21:46

my son lives in a happy home thanks and I go to work mostly everyday if i dont get a phone call i dont sit at home all day who are you to try make other feel like crap saying beacuse I'm aggressive lol im entilet3d to feel angry on a post doesn't make my son s environment angry witch you are basically trying to say

inheritancetrack · 21/01/2022 21:47

@gsaoej

So no exclusion!
Expulsion and exclusion are not the same. A pupil can be excluded for a set period. Permanent exclusion is effectively expulsion, but it's help,this kid needs
1AngelicFruitCake · 21/01/2022 21:48

[quote HereBeFuckery]@Liveandlove91
You seem to think that there's an 'othering' of SEND children, but you said

"I fought so hard for the help for my son and still am these people have no clue"

Calling people who disagree with you 'these people' is the same thing as you object to with respect to your child. You are being rude and angry for no reason. Plenty of posters have said they are teachers or SEN specialists. They do have a clue. To say otherwise is rude.

Parents of children who have been hurt are going to want to protect their child. That's all you are doing, and all they are doing.

I'm sorry that your child clearly causes you pain, anguish and unhappiness. Please don't turn this into a bunfight. [/quote]
I agree. There’s clearly something making the poster very unhappy and it’s a shame because its impossible to have a discussion about this issue with them. I also agree with the poster who said this person is giving SEN parents a bad name, although I get the impression this person wants an argument and it’s sad to think of the impact on her own child.

Tillymintpolo · 21/01/2022 21:48

Absolute word salad

Liveandlove91 · 21/01/2022 21:48

U have no clue about life in general you have no clue what us parents have to go through to get the help...

MilduraS · 21/01/2022 21:49

@germsandcoffee

My son was that boy but not as extreme. Please don't form a parent mob ! All express concerns individually, not all parents of disruptive children don't give a fu&& and we have feelings. It's hard to get help at primary if school don't really force it with those higher.
I was one of the posters who suggested she should write a complaint to the school. I'd hope you'd see it in the light most parents would intend. Not to gang up on you but to make it clear that they are falling well below the standard of care that ALL of the children involved require. I think if parents of non-SEN children speak up, it could go a long way to forcing the funding issue. It's easy to fob off 10 individual sets of parents with excuses about why their child doesn't warrant support but if you have the parents of 500 children behind you saying that's not good enough, it gets harder to ignore.
Decktheschools · 21/01/2022 21:50

I haven't read all the comments, but I'd be pulling my child out of the school. Not because of the boy's behaviour but because the school clearly have no idea about SEN. All behaviour is communication, the boy is communicating that he's not happy and it appears the school is doing nothing to understand why he's not happy.

I'd worry that if the school can be so incompetent as to not realise the boy needs more help than they can offer they may be missing other things too. For example if your child were to get bullied and their behaviour changed would you trust the school to notice and to take action? I wouldn't.

ConsuelaHammock · 21/01/2022 21:50

What happens to children like this child when they are old enough to be prosecuted for aggressive behaviour? At what age do they accept / learn that their behaviour could end with a prison sentence? Or do we make excuses for them indefinitely?
At least by age 10 the parents of a child who has been on the receiving end of a violent child’s outburst can call the police.

1AngelicFruitCake · 21/01/2022 21:52

@Liveandlove91

my son lives in a happy home thanks and I go to work mostly everyday if i dont get a phone call i dont sit at home all day who are you to try make other feel like crap saying beacuse I'm aggressive lol im entilet3d to feel angry on a post doesn't make my son s environment angry witch you are basically trying to say
I’ve said that and I wonder if people who know you would say the same? Would your child’s school say that about you? Only you know the answer to that. You come across as someone who will argue black is white. I hope things get better for you.
ConsuelaHammock · 21/01/2022 21:53

I don’t accept that the school aren’t doing enough. This is a mainstream school. The teachers aren’t always trained to teach children like this. Why should one child get all the attention? To the detriment of 29 others? It happens all the time and it needs to stop.

Liveandlove91 · 21/01/2022 21:55
Grin
VelvetChairGirl · 21/01/2022 21:55

@Smileyaxolotl1

VelvetChairGirl Was it the specialist primary that gave him the person and the time outs etc or the mainstream? If mainstream it sounds like they were doing very well.

I would really be thinking about how you can work with the school to improve the current situation with your son (not saying you aren’t)
As a few previous posters have said secondaries are much more willing to move to exclusion quickly than primaries - obviously not for breaking a few pens in a corridor but if he starts swearing at senior teachers regularly or threatening people.

The mainstream got him in the specialist it was 2 days a week in the primary and 3 days in the specialist they worked together to create a strategy.

the main thing was consistency in rules etc, someone who was always there for him and a place to go when stressed.

sadly its all out the window with secondary, he gets counseling once a a week , he has his card system which I requested as it worked before but it seems to be hit and miss with some teachers threatening to take it away for misuse and others respecting it, I am not entirely sure what the point of it is if teachers refuse it. I am getting frankly fed up with talking to the Sen woman about it all and the inconsistencies, on the one hand I get it thy keep having different supply teachers in etc and they have 31 kids in a class to teach and he needs to get used to different people acting differently otherwise he is fucked when he's old enough to get a job.

on the other hand I know he would be much better in the army or something because consistency, firm but fair that kind of thing he thrives on and thats what he needs in school, yes I know some of the teachers may think they are being nice for letting him off having a detention for reading his magazine in class but it doesnt help when he does it in someone else's class who does give him detention for it and it gets his anxiety up

rhowton · 21/01/2022 21:55

You need to go in to school as ask for him to be removed as soon as possible. Make a fuss everyday. Report it to social services. Report to ofsted. Report report report. If nothing changes, move school.

ConsuelaHammock · 21/01/2022 21:55

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VelvetChairGirl · 21/01/2022 21:56

@Smileyaxolotl1

VelvetChairGirl Was it the specialist primary that gave him the person and the time outs etc or the mainstream? If mainstream it sounds like they were doing very well.

I would really be thinking about how you can work with the school to improve the current situation with your son (not saying you aren’t)
As a few previous posters have said secondaries are much more willing to move to exclusion quickly than primaries - obviously not for breaking a few pens in a corridor but if he starts swearing at senior teachers regularly or threatening people.

oh and you can not exclude a child with a EHCP
Autismandgin · 21/01/2022 21:57

Agree with 1AngelicFruitCake

Hope things get better for the very angry poster Flowers

inheritancetrack · 21/01/2022 22:01

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Message deleted by MNHQ. Refers to deleted post

User48751490 · 21/01/2022 22:02

DS missed out on gymnastics because the boy who always causes bother had a "tantrum" so the whole class had their PE lesson outdoors instead. I was really annoyed.

Also if said boy won't leave the classroom if his behaviour in class is not acceptable, then the whole class has to leave so he has to stay in the classroom.

Absolutely ludicrous. Disruptive to the whole class. Luckily DS going up to secondary this year so doesn't have to put up with this charade much longer. Upsetting for the children who want to learn, and especially for the teacher.

I can't imagine how frustrating it is.

trunktoes · 21/01/2022 22:03

@inheritancetrack true though

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