To be worried about war

[Ciaram55]

The stand off between Russia and the west over Ukraine. I can't see either side backing down. I'm just so worried now. I know that worrying doesn't help but it seems to be a very tense time right now.

It is worrying.
And given the last couple of years we should all be more aware that things can go tits up.

Similar to MrsTerryPratchett, I’ve been concerned for years about the reports of huge amounts of dirty Russian money swamping the U.K. and the involvement of financial systems. Many thanks to our idiotic leaders bleating on about the wonders of globalism and intertwined dependence. They’ve impoverished our people to make us vulnerable. It may have worked between neighbours and similar cultures France and Germany, but China and Russia never were that.

I found this article about the history of Russia and Ukraine interesting, in case anyone else would. www.economist.com/christmas-specials/2021/12/18/why-russia-has-never-accepted-ukrainian-independence

I just don't think we should be in that area. Surely it's understandable that Russia feels threatened. We should get out and defuse the situation.i hate the worry of all this.

It’s Europe’s eastern frontier. Where territories meet there will always be tensions. From the way it is being reported Russia is the prime instigator at the moment.

@ParsleySageRosemary

It’s Europe’s eastern frontier. Where territories meet there will always be tensions. From the way it is being reported Russia is the prime instigator at the moment.

Well i see it as the West getting more and more ex Soviet states to join NATO.

Russia has been invaded by european powers before, the last one cost millions of Russian lives, they are edgy.

Zero reason to have Ukraine in NATO, its just provocation.

Ex-Soviet? What were they before the USSR? Look up the Grand Duchy of Lithuania and Poland, and before that, Byzantium.
It’s the Eastern border of Europe. When you remove from contested border areas, new borders are created rather closer to your heartlands. Last time it was down the middle of Germany.

It’s not simple.

Why are people saying Russia is edgy?
No normal western powers want war.

The people who want war are the ones who who caused it or stuck their oars into horrific situations just like Putin the dictator has.

Alexander and whose benefits from gas prices soaring!!

Why are people saying Russia is edgy?
Or why are Russians viewed as aggrieved innocents. Ask the Poles.

Fortunately we’re not just reliant on buffoons and bad hairstyles in Parliament. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60095385

Just seen that the news is telling us what Raab and Truss are saying.

I'm struggling to think of two people I would trust less to tell me that water was wet.

Are there any sources we can trust ?

One think that worries me is that Johnson will see this as a great opportunity to get his supporters back on side.

@DGRossetti

Just seen that the news is telling us what Raab and Truss are saying.

I'm struggling to think of two people I would trust less to tell me that water was wet.

Are there any sources we can trust ?

Nothing I’d trust in the MSM.

The Royal United Services Institute (RUSI) does decent political and military analysis but a lot of it is behind a paywall.

rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/russia-and-ukraine-one-people-putin-claims

There’s also some very interesting analysis on some forums that cater for mainly the ex-military…

There you will find people who have had to look at this sort of thing for real, so they tend have a grasp of the grim realities and not to be taken in by the politicians...

My DH went to war just after we had moved to an army estate in a town 100 miles from my family where I knew one person.
That was scary

@JanuaryBluehoo

Why are people saying Russia is edgy? No normal western powers want war.

The people who want war are the ones who who caused it or stuck their oars into horrific situations just like Putin the dictator has.

Ha ha so lets start with Vietnam move onto to invasions in Central America, two invasions of Iraq, 20 years in Afghanistan and then using military might to destroy Libya.... plus a few smaller ones i ve not mentioned... then we arm SA to the teeth and they fund and take part in wars all over the ME, including a brutal war in Yemen.

How many wars has Russian been in? over a similar period.

Why on earth are we getting ex Soviet states to join NATO ? an organisation that became redundant in 1989 but which we kept... some might ask why?

But the point is, whilst you are doubtless right, we don't want war, we need to convince Putin of this.

I hadn't read Putin's essay before. It is scary seeing ethnonationalism rear its head again. No one forced any ex Soviet states to join in the European Union experiment. No one is forcing Ukraine now.

Defence, unfortunately, is never redundant among the human species. Attack and invasion is. Britain you might remember stayed out of Vietnam, and the lead up to Afghanistan had its roots in terrorism that would require (and have taken up) a lot of discussion.

You are smashing together an awful lot of different times and places Alexandra. Why?

@ParsleySageRosemary

You are smashing together an awful lot of different times and places Alexandra. Why?

Fair question, if the suggested timescale starts with Vietnam then in addition to all the proxy wars that had Soviet “advisors” fingerprints, and more, all over them there is just the little issue of the Soviet-Afghan war, 1979-1989…

Of course for a while after that the Russian economy wasn’t in a particularly good position to support too many foreign ventures but objectively it’s Forces have certainly seen significant re equipment over the last few years.

I do think overall, looking at history, it’s understandable why Russia is more than slightly uncomfortable with NATO members on it’s borders but it’s disingenuous at the very least to somehow suggest the Soviets/Russians are squeaky clean when it comes to being involved in foreign walls…

Nothing I’d trust in the MSM

And we have a history where a serving PM went on national TV and lied to drag the UK into a war.

I'll be honest. At this distance, my trust is in very short supply.

Chill, Putin is a baaaadddd man but he's very far from stupid.

Because Parsley the US has been at war just about all the time since 1950ish. Russia invaded Afghanistan in 1979 and that's it, so the US armed the Mujahideen which evolved into the Taliban, they also invaded Afghanistan to stop the Taliban (anyone know how that's going?), Iraq, they supply arms to Saudi Arabia, they supplied arms to Libyans to destabilise their country and Russia are the bad guys? Wow...

Though Russia spends a fair bit more than the US on their military, the country is barely in a good economic position to fund a war and faces many economic challenges post Covid.

Sorry to disabuse you of your fact @AuntMasha but the US spends more on defence than China, Russia, UK, Turkey and Greece combined, and their income in dollars from exportation of oil and gas to the west has left them with a massive war chest. They're also buying loads of gold, possibly to back the ruble against a crash in the dollar, which, as it's only backed by trust is almost inevitable.

Britain isn’t the US. The EU isn’t the US. As DGRossetti says, in Britain Blair is not popular over Iraq.

I’d suggest you look up the origins of the Saudi-Yemen conflict and what the Houthis got up to, and grasp the religious differences and rivalries in the region.

@ParsleySageRosemary

You are smashing together an awful lot of different times and places Alexandra. Why?

Pointing out that when a poster says Russia is involved in some pretty nasty wars and is the aggressor and has nothing to fear from the west... that he/she is simply wrong. The wars we have got ourselves into over the last 50 years dwarfs anything China and Russia have done combined.

Germany said it would never invade Russia and even signed a peace treaty with them... less than a year later Operation Barbarosssa was launched, this is within many peoples life times, now that might be inconsequential to you but it feeds a mistrust of the west within Russia.

BTW how do you think the UK would feel if Russia formed a "defence" pact with Germany & France... would that make us feel at ease with the world?

Gas price increases aren't down only to Putin or CV but because Europe didn't invest in alternative energy sources, relied on oil, hurriedly switched to gas and didn't consider alternatives.

I’m worried about China too. Their president has been cracking down in recent times, some think he’s preparing for war.

@ParsleySageRosemary

Britain isn’t the US. The EU isn’t the US. As DGRossetti says, in Britain Blair is not popular over Iraq.

I’d suggest you look up the origins of the Saudi-Yemen conflict and what the Houthis got up to, and grasp the religious differences and rivalries in the region.

Ah i see, that means its ok to launch genocide on the Houthis (by denying them food, water, medicines and shelter plus trying to kill as many as possible) and arm the Saudis with the latest British weapons.

Its a barbaric war, which the UK is fostering by its full support for SA... why? to sell more weapons to them.

Sorry, I said president but he’s really a dictator!