To be worried about war

[Ciaram55]

The stand off between Russia and the west over Ukraine. I can't see either side backing down. I'm just so worried now. I know that worrying doesn't help but it seems to be a very tense time right now.

There were umpteen reasons for the scrapping of TSR2 - cost overruns, timescale overruns, the US offering the UK a good deal on F-111Ks - no need to go down the rabbit hole of it being a commie plot ordered directly from Moscow…

And in response to @Yebbie, unfortunately yes it is certainly possible to have fairly large scale conventional war confined to a relatively small geographic area even in this time of nuclear weapons..Korea, Vietnam, through the Falklands and the Gulf Wars etc..they all happened in the nuclear era.

Because nato will defend Ukraine and Russia will retaliate against nato countries. 🤷🏻‍♀️ If nothing else im worried about Russia cutting off the gas supply to Europe which I guess they’re entitled to do

No they won't, we/they didn't when Russia took Georgia, Ukraine isn't in NATO & Putin knows this, the gas supplies give him huge bargaining power, Russia has made a fortune recently, over 1/2 trillion US $.

The US could state we won't allow Ukraine to join NATO if the Russians withdraw forces and guarantee their independence - demilitarise the area.

War in Europe could escalate to the Baltic states - then NATO involved, economic collapse, millions of refugees, its unthinkable.

The only thing scarier is having Johnson calling the shots, which is why he has to go asap... the moron would start a war to save his own skin.
Luckily the UK isn't in the Russians league, so he can't go it alone.

BTW the conflict has been going on for years..

unfortunately yes it is certainly possible to have fairly large scale conventional war confined to a relatively small geographic area even in this time of nuclear weapons..Korea, Vietnam, through the Falklands and the Gulf Wars etc..they all happened in the nuclear era

None of these wars were Super power to Super power conflicts, it cannot be allowed to happen, War in europe could very easily escalate.

Very glad Biden is in and not Trump, he has his envoy talking to the Russians, God alone knows what Trump would have done.... probably said Nothing to do with the USA, giving carte blanc to Putin.

DGRossetti

"TSR2 was obsolete before it was scrapped. ICBMs saw to that.

There's a TSR2 at RAF Cosford if you really need to see what ancient looks like."

I always remember the saying "Do not argue with an idiot......" so I'm keeping my mouth shut (keyboard really).

Sorry for saying that but that comment about ancient really angers me.

[quote feellikeanalien]Frankly I find this more worrying.

www.reuters.com/world/russia-china-iran-hold-joint-naval-drill-friday-isna-2022-01-20/[/quote]
I wouldn't be too worried about the naval exercises.
Those countries all put together have 4 aircraft carriers.
Check this out:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_carriers

I wouldn't be too worried about the naval exercises.
Those countries all put together have 4 aircraft carriers.

It’s also not a new thing.

You sound like Duncan Sandys. He decided aircraft were obsolete when the V1s started arriving over the UK - to be intercepted by Tempest fighters, a wing of which was commanded by Roland Beamont who was to become chief test pilot of the TSR2 (he'd been on the Lightning and Canberra testing too) Which was better than anything the Americans had at the time or due out (including the F111 which replaced the TSR2 order from the Australians). If I remember rightly it was also a superior aircraft to the Tornado which was the last military aircraft Beamont was involved with. Axing of TSR2 was absolutely a political decision, pushed by the Americans, bordering on treason in my view.

Ugly thing though, the TSR2.

Above should be a response/quote to DGRosetti. Kind of went wrong!

Unpopular opinion maybe but no I'm not worried. We've been sending troops to Estonia, Latvia and the Ukraine for years now alongside other NATO forces, to exercise military presence in front of Russia. Putin does this every so often

@Politics4me
If you think Denis Healy was in anyway a Communist then you have lot the plot. What are you buzzing ?

I'm scared. While some news outlets are informing of what's happening, we know very little the seriousness of the situation.

I know my opinion is not going to be popular but I don't blame Putin. NATO has been expanding troops and arms on Eastern Europe despite assurances by several USA presidents, European and UK Prime Ministers that it would NOT happen, yet it's happening and has been happening for decades despite continuous complaints from Russia that it would never accept NATO forces outside its borders.

Funny how Cuba having missiles almost caused WWIII and when the shoe is in the other foot, Putin is the baddy. The West still have not learned the lesson of WWII - you don't fuck with the Russians.

If China decides that it's also time to flex its muscle for control of the South China Sea, we are in serious trouble.

nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early

@USaYwHatNow

Unpopular opinion maybe but no I'm not worried. We've been sending troops to Estonia, Latvia and the Ukraine for years now alongside other NATO forces, to exercise military presence in front of Russia. Putin does this every so often

This is precisely the problem and why Putin will invade Ukraine.

This particular issue has been going on since 2014, similar amount of Russian troops at the border now as there was then, number have just dropped inbetween.

@HeyBlaby

This particular issue has been going on since 2014, similar amount of Russian troops at the border now as there was then, number have just dropped inbetween.

*numbers

None of these wars were Super power to Super power conflicts, it cannot be allowed to happen, War in europe could very easily escalate.

You’re right though Korea/Vietnam were pretty close to de facto super power on super power at times given the amount of technical advice/“advisors” involved….

I think in the case of the Ukraine is a difficult read..as others have said it’s been going on for years at a lower level, and fundamentally under pinning the west’s response is the fact that Ukraine is not a NATO member so Article 5 of the North Atlantic treaty doesn’t apply…

Fairly common thought in other quarters seems to be that Putin might end up trying a sizable land grab but will not attempt to take the whole of the Ukraine, and that NATO will do everything in it’s powers to not become directly involved militarily…

*Grew up with ads telling us how to protect ourselves in the event of a nuclear attack.

Mattresses, apparently.*

Not the the UK - Protect and Survive was never broadcast (and the leaflet never widely distributed even though many people claim to remember it coming through their door - it was only to be distributed in the case of an imminent threat of war and we never got there).

@AtomicBlondeRose

I do think there might be a bit of mis remembering going on.

In any event geographically/politically the situation is very different now from the days of Protect and Survive and the 80’s, when we had Warsaw Pact Forces sat not a million miles from the Channel Ports and the nightmare for planners was a Soviet Shock Army rolling out of barracks in East Germany on a Friday night and heading west across the Inner German Border at full speed…..

That’s not to say we should not be concerned about what is going on in the Ukraine and on it’s eastern borders but we need to be wary about some of the hype appearing in the MSM…

I think people should benefit from watching the movie "Don't look up" :)

What’s a new war? We’re constantly under threat from the nutjobs that run the world.

Yes, the chances of global nuclear war are vanishingly small. Indeed the chances of any nuclear weapon being deployed at all are extremely slim. As someone who’s been scared of nuclear war for 30 years, even I’m not worried about that scenario!

[quote Ikona]@londonrach I was reading about that this morning, some are American fighter jets doing unscheduled exercises. You can see them on sky scanner sites/apps, but there aren't the usual notifications on the government website for nearby residents, so it's likely emergency drills being carried out in preparation.

The war itself won't come to the UK, but it is terrifying for those in Ukraine. Putin does seem to do this sort of thing from time to time, but it's best to take it seriously.[/quote]
In Scotland there have been notices of low flying aircraft training. I'll see if I can find them. I'm pretty sure I read about these in October.

@BarrowInFurnessRailwayStation

Russia aren't doing very well economically and are actually quite pathetic now, although Putin goes to great lengths to conceal it. It's just a load of willy waving because he knows he's not head of a superpower anymore.

Agree

With regard to low flying aircraft don’t forget there has always been low flying by NATO aircraft/formations of aircraft over defined parts of the UK to a greater or lesser degree with no need for warning notices to be issued.

AFAIK notices to the general public/flying community only used to get issued if there was a going to be an unusual level of activity over a particular area for a significant period of time (several days).

I’ve had the odd look at a couple of the tracker sites over the last week and not seen an unusual level of activity over the UK, but OTOH the intelligence gathering going on over the Ukraine is quite interesting.

@Andante57

Denis Healy destroyed our TSR2 prototypes. Would not allow it to go ahead because it was so much better than anything the Soviets had. All drawings burned all jigs cut up

I didn’t know he’d done that - what reason did he give for doing that? I mean, presumably he didn’t admit it was because they were better than anything the Soviets had.

Read it all now.... what on earth has events 60 years ago got to do with Putin and the Ukraine?

Huge cost overruns and we had to keep the Yanks happy.... Labour bought in Polaris, hardly a bunch of commies!

Russia aren't doing very well economically and are actually quite pathetic now, although Putin goes to great lengths to conceal it. It's just a load of willy waving because he knows he's not head of a superpower anymore

Simply not true, they are making 100s of millions as gas and oil prices have risen.