If we have to vote this year or the next, women who will not vote Labour due to the GRA raise your hand

[TerraNovaTwo]

As above

@entropynow

Translation: how many of you will allow the Tory party to fuck over the entire country once again because you just can't bear the idea that trans people exist?

WHY does MN allow this tripe?

Yep, that's about the crux of it!

@crosstalk

Can Mumsnet (without stepping out of their apolitical stance) not ask all political parties what their stances are?

Or answer mediated questions on a live feed?

I agree that there are more urgent and immediate issues - housing, increased cost of living, homelesssness, NHS, schooling, environment including water companies polluting our rivers and sea.

HOWEVER GRA is a major long term consequence. What gives if one party puts more money into women's refuges, rape crisis centres, prisons and the NHS, if women have to tolerate policies that mean they will come across TW or men self IDing as women?

This would be a good idea. They could also ask if any of the parties supports post-legislative scrutiny of the GRA.

I don't agree self-ID is a single issue. It impacts almost every area of all our lives.

1. Toilets - thereby impacting our participation in public life
2. Changing rooms - impacting our fitness. Bone strength is important for women so access to being fit is important to us
3. Schools - single sex, sports in schools, trips away etc
4. Employment law - if men can self-ID as women then pay gay reporting becomes a skewed nonsense
5. Service provision. You need to know how many women of what age live in your area so you can plan maternity care, cancer care etc. Target campaigns at them to get help early. Provide breastfeeding groups FOR WOMEN
6. Refuges
7. Rape counselling and evidence collection
8. Who does gynaecological services for you
9. Who does your intimate care, who does it for your elderly mum and dad

10. What we tell children about their bodies. Facts. Facts matter if children are abused but they can't name body parts, will a case progress to court? 11. (cont from 10) If not then that also impacts justice and lets predators walk free 12. Groups that girls used to be able to go to, for girls only, are becoming mixed sex by stealth. 13. Crime stats are a mess and unreliable. So we now seem to have a situation with an "increase" in female sex offending. But do we? Or do we have crap data and we don't know what the real position is because of self-ID by stealth? 14. Evidence given in court. If compelled to use female terminology for the male who raped you, how good is your evidence going to be under what are already incredibly pressing circumstances? 15. Impact on female police officers and prison officers compelled to search male bodies. Are they not put at risk by self-ID? 16. Impact on young lesbians and gay males of being fed by social media, narratives about their bodies and themselves that make them think they're trans. We have emerging evidence of detransitioners which is devastating to read.

I'm sure that's not an exhaustive list but I'd like to understand parties' views on what they think will and will not change under self-ID and the above.

you just can't bear the idea that trans people exist?
You are misunderstanding (and misrepresenting) us. Have you not bothered to read the thread?

*pay GAP reporting

Ah mr/ms/mx “you just can’t beat that trans people exist” has arrived. Come in we were expecting you!

Now can you explain how it benefits women tk open up their single sex spaces to men?

@crosstalk

Can Mumsnet (without stepping out of their apolitical stance) not ask all political parties what their stances are?

Or answer mediated questions on a live feed?

I agree that there are more urgent and immediate issues - housing, increased cost of living, homelesssness, NHS, schooling, environment including water companies polluting our rivers and sea.

HOWEVER GRA is a major long term consequence. What gives if one party puts more money into women's refuges, rape crisis centres, prisons and the NHS, if women have to tolerate policies that mean they will come across TW or men self IDing as women?

Every politician invited on MN for any party has run a mile from any questions on this issue

They don’t want to answer the question because you know deep down none of them really believe men can become women either and they know exactly which sex gives birth & which doesn’t

Left the party because not allowed to say that the female sex exists. Obliged to pretend that humans can change sex. That humans don't have two distinct reproductive sexes.

No-one else to vote for, though. And some excellent feminist Labour MPs.

But fundamentally not a party that accepts female leadership - or even female existence.

I wouldn't trust them to answer honestly either.

@senua

you just can't bear the idea that trans people exist? You are misunderstanding (and misrepresenting) us. Have you not bothered to read the thread?

Straight from the TRA prompt sheet. Deliberately don't bother to read what is actually said. Replace considered responses with tropes such as you don't want tran people to exist. Or bigot. Really it's not even worth debating with responses like this. They're not here to learn anything new. They're here for one purpose only.

I was a labour member and quit over this issue, there is no way they will get my vote if they carry on like this. I am really pissed off that all left wing parties are pro self id, I have always been on the left and I'm at a loss now.

The realisation that women's rights matter so little to so many people in power has been quite sobering and depressing.

Op, many people don't know what gra is.
You shouldn't assume people know.

But I won't be voting Labour because of this.

@Goldshelfie

I was a labour member and quit over this issue, there is no way they will get my vote if they carry on like this. I am really pissed off that all left wing parties are pro self id, I have always been on the left and I'm at a loss now.

The realisation that women's rights matter so little to so many people in power has been quite sobering and depressing.

Same. Labour have really let women down. They won't get my vote again.

*Every politician invited on MN for any party has run a mile from any questions on this issue

They don’t want to answer the question because you know deep down none of them really believe men can become women either and they know exactly which sex gives birth & which doesn’t*

True. Doesn't mean MN can't ask again though.

This site really has gone to the pits

Imagine being so filled with hate you drag the rest of the country down with you

Me. And I'm a party member!!!!

I can't see how they can come back to a point where I feel safe voting for them tbh. It's as much the willingness to kowtow tbh, I doubt many of them believe what they're parrotting for a moment.

Imagine being so filled with hate you drag the rest of the country down with you

Another one from the TRA cheat sheet.

I sympathize with people feeling this way, but from my pov there is nobody else to vote for and I can't help the Tories - though I'm fairly sure our year of a Tory MP will get voted in again. Can't stand the man for a number of reasons, so even if he's willing to say he knows what a woman is, that doesn't outweigh his stance on just about every other important issue. I've checked his voting record, we disagree on pretty much all of them.

Wait wait I need to get my bingo card!

@MrBlobbyLivesNextDoor

Imagine being so filled with hate you drag the rest of the country down with you

Another one from the TRA cheat sheet.

Oooo ooooh Ooooooh I know this one!!!

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT WOMEN'S RIGHTS

And as for the laughable attempt at emotional manipulation, you lot have went too far....we don't CARE any more about the finger pointing and name calling and attempts to shame us into "being kind" and allowing our rights to be trampled on. Go ahead. Call me terf.

Terf has now self ID'd as a new acronym, didn't you know. Tired of Explaining Reality to Feckwits.

Consider yourself educated.

@Theeyeballsinthesky

Wait wait I need to get my bingo card!

We can tick them off together

The realisation that women's rights matter so little to so many people in power has been quite sobering and depressing.

I have to add a little amendment to this - the realisation that women's rights matter so little to so many WOMEN is breathtaking.

I am not saying that there aren't pro-self ID MPs in the conservative party or that there isn't much more that they could and should be doing, just that the pro-self ID stuff isn't coming from them anymore (at the moment?)

It very much is coming from Conservative members! Including the Conservative Chair of of the Cross Party Committee for Women and Equalities. Penny Mordaunt who firmly believes TWAW and spoke out on the front benches against sensible HoL's recommendations on the reforms. Crispin Blunt who launched complaints proceedings against the Surrey PCC because she did a JKR tweet.

You just don't hear much about it in the press. I wonder why?

because you just can't bear the idea that trans people exist?

I have not the teensiest issue with trans people existing. I taught two at school yesterday (and called them what they prefer to be called).They're both lovely. Contrary to the TRAs' lies, nobody is 'debating trans people's existence or right to exist'. Transwomen are transwomen. Transmen are transmen. They exist. They just can't change sex.

Privileged m/c women financially comfortable enough to weather the economic storm of brexit/covid/austerity who are prepared to let other less fortunate women suffer. Ask women on NMW, zero hours, no real increase in benefits for years, zero investment in schools and NHS, crime rife, career opportunities for young women and men minimal in deprived areas but 'boris' and the tories are preferable. Mind boggles.

Former labour voter here. Spoiled vote last time and will do so again. If we can’t trust any of them to protect women’s rights, we really can’t trust them to do anything else. We will not lie. If I had a decent feminist MP I might reconsider. But a definite no to the one that says men should be allowed in women’s prisons. And the gaslighters can just fuck off.