To think this couple's attitude has no place in modern society?

[Georama]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10419543/Christian-couple-ban-gay-man-partner-buying-dream-650-000-sexuality.html

A church-going wife who banned a gay man and his ITV producer partner from buying her £650,000 Surrey home has hit back in the row and insisted they are just sticking to their beliefs.

Luke Whitehouse and Lachlan Mantell were stunned when they were told that they could not buy the three-bedroom home because the Christian owners didn't want to sell to 'two men in a partnership.'

Honestly, they should be ashamed of that text. I hope no estate agent will work with them ever again.

@NightmareSlashDelightful

I think what a lot of people don't get or are refusing to see is that expressing prejudice through religion is just one framework through which we as gay people find ourselves on the receiving end of homophobia. (Which, when you strip everything else away, is basically fear and weak-mindedness, in my opinion.)

It comes in many forms. Religion 'it's against God's will, the Bible forbids it', etc. Medical 'gay people spread HIV'. Statistical 'well there's only a tiny percentage of you, you don't matter'. Societal 'I don't want my children exposed to that'. And so on it goes.

Some people will find whatever convenient framework that works for them to justify it, but the end result is the same: alienation, prejudice, rejection, hatred and sometimes violence.

That's why this situation is shit. Because Luke and Lachlan have probably experienced bits of shit chucked at them like this their whole lives, but with varying justifications.

Oh, THIS!!!

If you've never been on the end of homophobia, then don't think you can even begin to imagine how it feels.

To the poster who said "obviously homophobia is upsetting, but...." there is no but if this couple said they weren't willing to sell to a black couple, would you say "obviously racism is upsetting, but..."

Oh and 24% saying YABU? Sigh.

I try to avoid threads about LGBT issues like this one on MN because it hurts.my.heart and also does.my.head.in seeing people discuss my life, my marriage, my family like we don't actually exist in real life.

@LoveMae
It is endless, isn’t it. I genuinely do think our lives are better than 20/30 years ago but there will always be those who would happily excuse homophobia because of their own prejudices.

I think what gets me on here is the constant minimisation of homophobia by referring to it as just a difference of opinion or a belief. I’ve not come across this with racism or sexism, seems like to many people homophobia is still acceptable whether they agree with it or not.

That 25% seems pretty constant on MN- you can get people calling out homophobia and about a quarter of MN comments will be from people saying it’s not homophobic, everyone is entitled to their views, or saying sexuality is irrelevant here etc when it’s clearly the whole point
I wonder if RL would show the same thing? Be interesting to know…

Ah good old Christianity (and other religions), "Love thy fellow man.....unless they also love their fellow man, in which case, do everything you can to make their lives more difficult".

BTW Jesus said (if we believe it) 'Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfil.' I was taught at my school which was a very religious establishment that it meant the Jewish laws were NOT to be changed.

In real life I can only think of a couple people who have outed themselves as homophobic, so that 25% is always a wake up call.

It's incredible that educated people can have that attitude. They sound like they are in a cult. I wonder what their religious background is?

I wonder if RL would show the same thing?

If it was an anonymous voting box maybe, but in conversation, no of course not

@loislovesstewie

BTW Jesus said (if we believe it) 'Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfil.' I was taught at my school which was a very religious establishment that it meant the Jewish laws were NOT to be changed.

But they're not being changed. Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament laws when he was crucified and died. That's what the temple veil being torn in two when Jesus died symbolised. That's why his final words were, "It is finished." That's why Christians don't need to abide my the Mosaic laws anymore. There seems to be so much misunderstanding about this. If we are going to discuss Christianity we might as well be accurate.

Also, the Christians in question would argue that they ARE loving these men by saying what they said. I suppose it's an unpopular view if you're not a Christian, but telling people the word of God is an act of love for their own benefit, not to be judgey or cruel, but to save them - although unfortunately it might come across as judgey and cruel. Well, I suppose it would be very difficult to tell someone that their behavior is sinful without offending them!

the Christians in question would argue that they ARE loving these men by saying what they said

bollocks

@OneTC

the Christians in question would argue that they ARE loving these men by saying what they said

bollocks

... well, they would!

Some people don't seem to understand that being homophobic isn't a neutral position. It's not like preferring apples to oranges. If you think it's okay to behave like the couple in question, then yes, actually, you are condoning not different private beliefs (abhorrent ones, but sure - freedom of ideas), but hatred. Good old fashioned hatred.

So don't dress it up in the language of pluralism and respect, and call gay people stupid and childish for challenging you. We know exactly what you're saying, we see right through it, and we'll continue to call it out.

@Flutterflybutterby You're condoning homophobia.

The woman has a PHD - it’s mind boggling that someone allegedly so educated can act in such an ignorant manner. They’ll have kids too no doubt, and poison their minds with the same bigotry

@WindInTheWillows7

I don't think the comparisons to bans on black/Irish/traveller people hold up, because it is not the fact that the buyers are gay and have this protected characteristic which is the issue for the sellers, it is the fact that they are in a gay relationship, which is a lifestyle choice, not a characteristic. They weren't discriminating against them because because they were same-sex attracted, but rather because they didn't want to sell their house to people who would be actively practicing their homosexuality in that building. That's very different to refusing to sell to someone because of their sexuality. It was more about what the building would be used for (a home for two people in a gay relationship).

A very similar thing happened years ago to Irish travellers in a town called Rathkeale. When the sellers refused to sell to travellers, the travelling community started buying up the houses round about it. As I recall the original house was sold for far less than they wanted because they were the ones left feeling like outcasts.

If you think it's okay to behave like the couple in question, then yes, actually, you are condoning not different private beliefs (abhorrent ones, but sure - freedom of ideas), but hatred. Good old fashioned hatred.
Exactly

@Innocenta

Some people don't seem to understand that being homophobic isn't a neutral position. It's not like preferring apples to oranges. If you think it's okay to behave like the couple in question, then yes, actually, you are condoning not different private beliefs (abhorrent ones, but sure - freedom of ideas), but hatred. Good old fashioned hatred.

So don't dress it up in the language of pluralism and respect, and call gay people stupid and childish for challenging you. We know exactly what you're saying, we see right through it, and we'll continue to call it out.

But that's attaching very emotive and inaccurate language to what happened, in order to prove your point. There is no evidence of any type of hatred. Yes, we can see that the couple felt that selling to a gay couple would be compromising their religious morals.

Another Christian here, I think this is horrible behaviour. I wouldn’t want to buy a house from them.

@Elsiebear90

“Or, people are actually defending a freedom that actually people should be concerned about losing”

The freedom to be a homophobic judgemental bigot and not be called out on it?

No one is suggesting they should go to prison, they are saying their behaviour while not being illegal is immoral and they deserve to be criticised for it.

I think this is important. There is a difference between actively imposing as punishment upon people who have differing beliefs, and morally being able to say, this behaviour, in my opinion is wrong. This couple has the right to sell or show their home to whomever they wish, and they can discriminate as much as they like because they are selling a private possession. If they had kept their beliefs to themselves, and hadn't voiced their reasons then they should be able to make their own choices. Once they voiced these preferences then they should expect a moral debate, with those who think differently. Modern society is composed of everyone living today, independent of their background.

@Artichokeleaves

Well obviously they do have a place in modern society, they're living in it and it's ridiculous to pretend that society doesn't include people with these beliefs. It does. Those beliefs don't get changed by tutting and reporting to the police for wrong think, that just makes the divide of belief harder and them angrier. Having beliefs you may not agree with is not a crime.

If you discover that your seller is prejudiced and has incompatible views and doesn't want to sell to you - you shrug and go buy from someone else, because life is too short. You might think your seller is an unpleasant twit: that's not against the law. This whole punish and silence the wrongthinkers and be prejudiced against them really doesn't help anyone or solve anything. It's just prejudice in a different form.

I'm LGBT btw.

Spot on as ever 👏

If they are going to choose to believe in Old Testament stuff then believe the WHOLE BLOODY LOT! Don't pick and choose at will. Perhaps they shouldn't believe that being gay is a sin because of stuff in the Old Testament and then decide that other stuff doesn't count. I'm sorry, but it is being used to justify homophobia.
Why believe in the 10 Commandments? For example.
You can find anything in the Bible, just anything if you look hard enough. It isn't possible to be accurate, the bible has been written in Hebrew and then everyday Greek for the New Testament and most scholars of Greek in later centuries didn't understand that language. Goodness only knows how many mistakes were made in the many copies made over the centuries.
I'm sorry, but I really get very cross with the idea that people can pick and choose various parts as they see fit. I would also say that what was included in the bible was a matter for various people who added or took away as they saw fit. So, in actual fact, we have no idea if what we read is
a) correct because mistranslation was likely.
or
b) adjusted to suit what was required of the early Christians.
I'm sure people who believe will argue against that, so I'll leave it there.

@loislovesstewie

If they are going to choose to believe in Old Testament stuff then believe the WHOLE BLOODY LOT! Don't pick and choose at will. Perhaps they shouldn't believe that being gay is a sin because of stuff in the Old Testament and then decide that other stuff doesn't count. I'm sorry, but it is being used to justify homophobia. Why believe in the 10 Commandments? For example. You can find anything in the Bible, just anything if you look hard enough. It isn't possible to be accurate, the bible has been written in Hebrew and then everyday Greek for the New Testament and most scholars of Greek in later centuries didn't understand that language. Goodness only knows how many mistakes were made in the many copies made over the centuries. I'm sorry, but I really get very cross with the idea that people can pick and choose various parts as they see fit. I would also say that what was included in the bible was a matter for various people who added or took away as they saw fit. So, in actual fact, we have no idea if what we read is a) correct because mistranslation was likely. or b) adjusted to suit what was required of the early Christians. I'm sure people who believe will argue against that, so I'll leave it there.

But I am not sure why you are cross with people who "pick and choose". That's up to them, isn't it? Are you Jewish or Christian?